Blame game and stacking

[Djole88]

I had quite a few games (or parts of 'em) where I would just sit in base and admire the inventive side of people doing stupid @#(!, ie I'd think that killing the bomber heading towards your primary tech base would have priority over getting the EMP Cannon, didn't seem so funny the few times I had to command

[zombywoof]

QUOTE (Djole88 @ Jan 10 2018, 10:37 AM) I had quite a few games (or parts of 'em) where I would just sit in base and admire the inventive side of people doing stupid @#(!, ie I'd think that killing the bomber heading towards your primary tech base would have priority over getting the EMP Cannon, didn't seem so funny the few times I had to command

Oh god I forgot about EMP cannon.

Here's a video of your random voob scouting with treasures on:

https://youtu.be/-qTDNeNodCc?t=52

[Archangelus]

What is he really talking about?

We have the most newbie community of the world!!
Arent you happy??

Go back to your lol gaming.

[Bungiewedgie]

QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Jan 9 2018, 07:40 PM) Chat 101:

Press enter. Type a line. Press enter.

Oh, there's another thing. Sometimes you might be chatting on all-chat. This is pretty easy to fix. First hit the enter key, then just hit "tab" until the little thing displays your team name. It'll probably be once or twice.

Voice chats? Don't worry about 'em. I mean, learn them eventually, but meh.

Since text does not convey sarcasm very well ill just assume you mean well and say thank you for all your advice you have given me even though I knew most of it. I would also like to know why the chat sometimes goes over the software UI at the top with my ships status? It makes the text hard to read. Also, how can I scroll the chat back up or make more lines visible? Sometimes people spam multiple "Read the chat!" voice lines and the actual thing that was supposed to be read goes off the list. If anyone knows a solution please PM me as I dont want to clog this thread with such trivial things anymore, thanks! EDIT: LANS already contacted me. Thanks!

QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Jan 9 2018, 07:40 PM) If you take nothing else from my post, please don't sign your forum posts. You have a signature you can set up in your profile.

This seems a bit condescending. I am aware how forum software usually works. It appears I have used this particular software the first time in 2005. At least that appears to be my join date. The reason I signed this post is also related to this old account I have. I signed this particular post since I wanted people to know who I was ingame and perhaps have a better understanding of the posts context in this way. I have no intention in signing all my posts so I just signed that particular one. Such a minute detail should not disturb anyone I believe, especially since it served a purpose.

QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Jan 9 2018, 07:40 PM) Mein gott.

You've... you've cracked the code! Just accept the defeat and learn from it! Why didn't anyone think of that before? Why, in 17 years, did no one figure out this one key piece of the puzzles?!

QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Jan 9 2018, 07:40 PM) So if you want to know why your advice of "oh just accept the loss and learn from it" is such a pile of horse@#(!, it's this:

For me (and many others), commanding a 30 minute game is an hour-and-a-half of hard work surrounded by being bitched at endlessly from all fronts for people who insist on flying GT figs even after you've bought hvy ints.

That is a gross oversimplification of my message with a condescending cherry on the top. I am sorry if I was not clearer. Now I never expected anyone to actually understand much of what I am saying on the first time, so I appreciate these posts as I get to hone my message.

I talked about other options in dealing with and avoiding future losses such as: Not playing, using less damaging means of changing others and in between the lines you can also find the option of remaining silent. Some could also derive rules to address some parts of this issue if you are into that sort of things. "Do not place blame" or "Be polite and kind" comes to mind. Also you can keep on doing whatever you currently are and hope that you get a rush of new players that mix up the community enough to make these issues trivial.

So the main thing I would hope people realize is that if you like playing allegiance and hope that the community around it grows, then you need to be aware how your behavior affects it. Mainly that if you do not treat people with respect and value them, you are hurting the community and it is very dangerous thing to do in these small communities.


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On to the meaty story you provided.

QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Jan 9 2018, 07:40 PM) You have no $#@!ing idea what it means to command in this game. You have no idea what it's like to sit there for ten minutes after stepping up to command only to have half the game complain that you're too good and the other half complain that you're not good enough. You have no idea what it's like to sit there and be forced to ignore the people you like and want to have fly for you because some idiot has GC and will just flush any time you get a halfway decent player. You have no idea what it's like to then realize that, $#@! me, I could've killed five miners in the time it took this game to launch but noooooo, no one will command so I've got to sit in this seat and wait while everyone else hustles around to find that exact perfect match to command against me.

Ohh... I love talking and learning about leadership in different settings! I would like to know how you can be so certain that I have no $#@!ing idea what it means to command in this game? Fundamentals of leadership and the challenges stay the same regardless of the setting. There are slight variations due to the setting of course. The issues you mention in your post are commonplace in all settings, their form is just "distorted" by the setting. I will try and go over some of them in a way that highlights what the commander could do differently. This is an effort to show the way of thinking that "You cant change others, you can only effect your own behavior and that will reflect to other people." But this does not mean that you should not try help people develop in their behavior, but the dangers of doing so in a wrong way should always be kept in mind as I mentioned previously. You mentioned:

QUOTE Then when they do? Oh my LORD! "I don't want to fly TF." "Dregh on high money is terrible." "You can't go belters against Giga." "IC exp sucks and they're not worth playing." "Rix is op, no one can beat rix don't play rix." "Why don't you go TF on .75 starting money since TF is good on low money." The array of just @#(! advice you get from people as the bitch and moan about every single possible faction and techpath combination you could go.[/quote]

QUOTE Whatever, we've lost an op but the TP made it in. Now some old skool vet joins my team and things are looking up, right? WRONG! I'm immediately berated for how we have terrible map position and my miners aren't mining. OldSkool Vet carefully sends my miners to the single most obvious location ever. I order them back because ryu and djole are sitting there just waiting for those things to come through. I'm called an idiot and I say "they're rix and waiting" and I'm called an idiot again. Miners go through. Miners predictably die.[/quote]

QUOTE Sighing to myself, I manage to regroup the team ever so slightly and take a little map. I tell the team *again* where the miners are, (this time they're in Raiko, you know, the sector we saw them go into, which is really silly because after Raiko they're going to have to walk through a sector to get anywhere to mine, but hey that's not MY problem), and *again* they quickly triple check Ahto. Seemingly shocked that a sector with no helium isn't being mined, I sigh and say "screw it." We've got a techbase, two miners, and by some $#@!ing miracle a bit of map position. I mine out an outpost midlow just as the enemy pushes a con in there. "Attack Constructor" comes the voicechat of some squadded idiot. "NEGATIVE!" I voicechat repeatedly. "We just mined this sector out let them have it. Hit their miners instead that are just behind the op con." "Attack Constructor" "I need help! "Attack Constructor." So out comes the pile of voobs who fly to the damn constructor and shoot at it for a minute as it lines up. None of them can stand the shame of a scratched paint job though, so none of them ram the damn con which promptly builds, followed by shouts of "wow that was close."[/quote]

QUOTE Let's go kill some miners! The idiot from before who demanded we attack the constructor (but not ram it! That would be unfair) now spams "defend base" like it's going out of style. I tell him if he countermands my orders again that I'll boot him. "I'm not countermanding your orders," he insists, "just giving information."[/quote]

QUOTE Meanwhile, ReturningVet just joined the game and walked my miners into an enemy outpost. Predictably, all of the miners die. ReturningVet asks why I'm so stupid. I ask why the $#@! he moved my miners. He says I should be glad I have a vet as good as him running my economy. I say please don't in the future. He says "$#@! you" and ragequits.[/quote]

The above 5 quotes deal with the very common problem of backseat leadership. It happens everywhere. It happens at the workplace, in the military, in gaming and also at home. There are multiple causes and also multiple remedies. Lack of respect is a common cause. They don't respect the commanders role, they don't respect you as a person, they don't respect your abilities. You can fix this by asserting yourself or earning peoples respect. When the game is on and people start to hinder you in this way there is very little you can do. It needs to be made sure that the offender knows that he is doing something wrong and that it is causing hindrances. If that does not stop the offender then it is completely OK for you to remove the offending player from the team. This should not be done without immediate aftercare as soon as the game ends. You need to speak to or message the player why you did what you did. But remember that you should always also use some positive reinforcement. For example, tell him that you appreciate the player and the effort he made even if it was misguided. And most importantly try to consider what he has to say. Even if you don't see any immediate value in it, just say that you will think about it. Maybe even get back to him if you get something out of it. Booting ads respectability to the commanders role as the absolute power you should listen to, but more importantly, the good aftercare creates personal respect. It is also good to remember that respect that is gained from being a good player is just a small part of the pie.

Another thing I wanted to bring up regarding backseat commanding is the commanders intent and communicating it. Communication is usually at the heart of any leadership issue. Every commander should always try to make sure that he is understood and his intent is clear to everyone. This is always very setting dependent but what is important is that commanders should always try to perfect this. Communication is integral to an issue called misguided initiative. This happens when a capable person is maybe bored or does not understand your intent among other things. You can alleviate this by assigning them task that take into account their abilities. When you delegate him some responsibility you can also ease your own load. The key is communicating your intent so that he can act in your intent. In military affairs its called mission tactics, and its very interesting. The principles are applicable to workplaces and very much in gaming.

QUOTE You have no idea what it's like to sit there for ten minutes after stepping up to command only to have half the game complain that you're too good and the other half complain that you're not good enough. You have no idea what it's like to sit there and be forced to ignore the people you like and want to have fly for you because some idiot has GC and will just flush any time you get a halfway decent player.[/quote]

QUOTE For me (and many others), commanding a 30 minute game is an hour-and-a-half of hard work surrounded by being bitched at endlessly[/quote]


The above two quotes is the quintessential leadership experience. You get all of the blame and none of the credit. Even if you win, you cannot go bragging with your *#$@ out. It was the team who did it, not you. That's just the way it is. Large part of leadership is preparation, planning, thinking and observing. Very small parts are visible. The task is always larger than it seems to everyone else. You are always more attached to the task than anyone else. The thing you need to realize is that bitching about it wont help, it will only make it worse. You don't gain respect, you don't learn anything. I have often times wondered what is the thing that draws me to lead people. I think there is something in the process itself that is the reward. I dont yet know what it is, but hopefully one day.

There is so much more in your message. I am sorry that I cannot go through it even more in-depth now. Maybe sometime in the future. But one thing stood out I want to mention. So your story actually confirmed what I was suspecting in my message:
QUOTE But in this case I believe it is to do with the environment. It would appear that the culture of this community is somewhat non accepting of failure. Failure is treated with disdain and to get ahead of this some comms chose to play the blame game. I think its a knee-jerk reaction to losing. I can only imagine that some players must also routinely play the blame game with their commanders. Its a nice self feeding circle of blame and hate.[/quote]

So the team blames the commander and the commander blames the team. And everyone is provided with a shield that is blocking self improvement and creates unnecessary animosity among the very small community.

***OFF-TOPIC, Maybe continue these in another topic?***

Also and interesting slightly off-topic issue is setting up the game. Now this really is not strictly speaking a leadership thing since its more systemic. Setting up the game is a minefield and I agree it is very aggravating and arduous process when the game allows for as many opinions as there are @#$%@#s. This is a systemic issue caused by how the lobby system works. Two commanders who are able to negotiate can get past this stage easily with a compromise solution. But since that is not always going to happen, to help with this I suggest making a set of standardized settings that are expected to be OK to all who chose to command in non event games. Then on a shared decision these settings can be altered from the norm. This way there is automatically a forced common ground for comms to start from. Of course there are also issues in picking a faction and picking teams. Since they are related in that player want to play specific factions I would suggest that the faction is chosen first and "locked in", only then should players be allowed to join the teams. Now back in the day I remember that teams were often picked. Someone can surely say why that is not used anymore. All of these go towards that the commanders have to deal less with stacking, discussing about the settings and $#@!ing around with the faction choices. Since you have the access to the sourcecode, you could even enforce some of these in non-events without changing the written rules and having them require enforcing.

Another systemic issue that seem very interesting to me are floating tech and cash. According to posts on this thread It seems that they are often removing the player focus from important tactical issues. Its interesting to see that if random weapon and cash pickups are so detrimental to the commanders efforts then why are they still in game after all these years? Belters losing out on floating tech comes to mind but maybe that could be balanced in another way? Removing these would appear to be a great example of changing the system to alleviate some commonplace gameplay issues that in my view wrongly get blamed on the players for playing the game wrong.

*** OFF-TOPIC ends, Maybe continue these in another topic?***

[Bungiewedgie]

QUOTE (Archangelus @ Jan 11 2018, 07:38 AM) What is he really talking about?

We have the most newbie community of the world!!
Arent you happy??

Go back to your lol gaming.

I am talking about certain behaviors that are bad for this community's health!

We have the most distinctly skill-split and somewhat toxic community??
I enjoy the game but not the all aspects of the community!!

I dont know what lol gaming is?


This particular reply warrants some extra love in the form of fabulous maybe a Dr., definitely a Mr., Giorgio A. Tsoukalos:

QUOTE (Papsmear @ Jan 10 2018, 01:45 AM) Oddly enough I remember the name Bungiewedgie

I also remember your name.

QUOTE (Sheriff Metz @ Jan 10 2018, 01:59 AM) The Bungee Wedgie

https://youtu.be/M3nK4CzyPPQ

If i rememeber correctly the name came when playing halo or halo 2 and I would routinely have my avatar drop by accident to a particular beam and die there with the ragdoll resembling that particular stunt from jackass. And since the game was made by bungie I took a liberty of combining the two.

[MagisterXF94]

QUOTE Another systemic issue that seem very interesting to me are floating tech and cash. According to posts on this thread It seems that they are often removing the player focus from important tactical issues. Its interesting to see that if random weapon and cash pickups are so detrimental to the commanders efforts then why are they still in game after all these years? Belters losing out on floating tech comes to mind but maybe that could be balanced in another way? Removing these would appear to be a great example of changing the system to alleviate some commonplace gameplay issues that in my view wrongly get blamed on the players for playing the game wrong.[/quote]

my core, which will go live pretty soon addresses the systemic issue that you brought up. By removing all floating pieces of technology except for cash boxes

[One-Man-Bucket]

QUOTE (Bungiewedgie @ Jan 11 2018, 03:10 PM) Words

A+ points on leadership!

Your talent is wasted on allegiance

[Broodwich]

shucks, this guy is trying to change the dang gummed internet. i'm derned inspired!!

when does your 6 part self improvement video series come out? my budget is just 99.99 8)

[Bungiewedgie]

QUOTE (Broodwich @ Jan 13 2018, 03:18 AM) shucks, this guy is trying to change the dang gummed internet. i'm derned inspired!!

when does your 6 part self improvement video series come out? my budget is just 99.99 8)

I can tutor you for the cheap price of just 100 Euros/hour, this is a onetime, nontransferable offer, just for you.
And my scope is much more limited. I only try to influence communities that I would like to succeed in growing and would personally like to be a part of. Now when I am writing these things I also learn more about the community and whether or not its worth spending time in. That way I can cut my losses early as possible and move on if need be.

EDIT: I forgot to say that I am not really expecting much from these posts.

We plan on expanding to the internet once it decides to un$#@! itself.

[MagisterXF94]

Nevermind the cynicism, these grumpy vets just don't like to be challenged.
Some of us do care, so your message isn't wasted.