Ranking System

Allegiance discussion not belonging in another forum.
Post Reply
SunTzu
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:05 pm
Location: Asgård

Post by SunTzu »

First I have to say I hate posting this, but I can't find the thread that Dome was talking about.

While I don't agree that AllegSkill is or has worked, I'll presume that it's what the community is tolerating.

I'd like to say that a YTD (Year To Date) rank reset is a good thing, but that a LTD (Lifetime To Date) is important.

As we see since the last rank reset, is that some vets aren't getting ranks fast enough, this is yes part of their choosing the wrong teams or having unexpected results. However the main problem is that after 50 games some vets are still ranks under (5), this is a huge issue in my humblest opinion (my rank is (10) currently and going up so I'm not talking about me).

Some solutions;


1.

I have one huge issue with AllegSkill (as do many others), is that once it stabilizes at what it 'thinks' a players rank should be, it rarely if ever moves. Sigma needs to not stabilize around 1 but instead a higher value, this should be done by increasing Gamma as has been originally suggested by the designers of AllegSkill if the very problem discussed here happens.


2.

Many people have noticed since we adopted AllegSkill that it doesn't reflect increases in players skill, while taking measures as stated in my first point will help, it is important to maintain a YTD regular annual rank reset (in part), and also maintain a
LTD record. The reason is outlined in my third point below.

3.

Sliding record, which basically means that your YTD will show your rank for the year but the LTD will be an important part as well. While the exact mechanics can vary what I suggest is this after an annual rank reset.

A) Your YTD rank is basd 50% on your choices for the year and 50% on your historical rank.

Ai) You start the year with 100% of your LTD rank, each game you play that changes more equally to your YTD performance. If you are performing worse than you'll see your rank drop, if you perform as good or better than before your rank will stabilize and then start showing improvement (each of the first 50 games decreases the LTD portion by 1% and increases the YTD by 1% until they are 50%/50%):

Code: Select all

GAME    LTD  YTD
1        99%   1%
10       90%   10%
50       50%   50%


B) At the end of the year your LTD performance is adjusted with your last YTD performance.

If you played 1000 games with rank 10 for LTD and then played 1000 games at rank 12 for YTD, your LTD rank averages now to 11 for example. Generally speaking it will be difficult to increase your LTD by much as more and more games get slotted into LTD and you'll end up playing less games YTD. However you will see improvment to your LTD if you perform better.


Edit; Option, For more clearly shown performance improvements; before sliding in the YTD games into LTD, remove ½ of the number of YTD games from the LTD games, this will show a more noticeable change from year to year.


Suggest we also fully adopt the 50 point rank scale as originally intended by the authors of AllegSkill.


These are only suggestions, and please take them as well meaning as they are meant to be.
Last edited by SunTzu on Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
---
phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Feb 15 2013, 01:52 PM) In a lot of ways, Allegiance is like the Radio: it's all `am and `fm.
SunTzu
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:05 pm
Location: Asgård

Post by SunTzu »

A couple of other semi-related thoughts.

Using the in game points somehow is a great idea, how exactly is the real question to show it as reflecting ranks.

The real problem with game points is that they are heavily slotted to just whoring, which is important of course but obviously not the only thing. So what we'd likely need to do is regardless of whether in game points are going to reflect player rank is to revamp the entire (core related) points system.

Finding ways to give points for probing for example, even if it's only ½ point per probe at least you're getting something for the sometimes tedious and dangerious but always vital probe runs. Increasing points for discovering bases and rocks also helps. In any case revamping points is important if only for the morale of scout whores.
Last edited by SunTzu on Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
---
phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Feb 15 2013, 01:52 PM) In a lot of ways, Allegiance is like the Radio: it's all `am and `fm.
Aviation21
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:00 am
Location: 3rd Planet

Post by Aviation21 »

I completely agree with you! +1
Team play is all about timing and executing!
zombywoof
Posts: 6523
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:59 am
Location: Over the Rainbow

Post by zombywoof »

I wish we could have miner assists count for something... but that's probably a code change.
Image
Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
SunTzu
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:05 pm
Location: Asgård

Post by SunTzu »

In terms of miner assists and so forth (con assists etc), we can with a code change, the server does know how much damage people do to miner and con kills, that's why the player that did the most in a certain time frame gets attached to the message that the object was killed.

Frankly it might be also possible to 'sort of' give base kills/caps assists as well, though it would definately require a code change (and obviously not be perfect); mark all players in that sector as getting an assist. That however is more complex but it could work.


================


The rather difficult point reward system as backtrack is working on might better work with or on its' own with an MVP option...

We can fairly simply code a #mvp callsign to send feedback directly.

For some reason I'm thinking hockey and three stars if you will...

The winning commander gets MVP for their team.

Each team may vote for a MVP for their side (so like hockey for instance the winning team would get two).

They can't vote for themselves and if they don't vote their vote is proxied to that teams commander.


You'd have say, 60 seconds to vote. After that the server announce on all the MVPs and/or updates the game stats.


The value of being an MVP is pretty much bragging rights or karma I suppose, unless it can develop into something more.


Options;

A) Getting voted MVP increases in game points by 10%.

B) Your vote is weighted to the amount of the game you played.

C) Getting voted MVP increases your in game points by 10% of the player that voted for you.
Last edited by SunTzu on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
---
phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Feb 15 2013, 01:52 PM) In a lot of ways, Allegiance is like the Radio: it's all `am and `fm.
cashto
Posts: 3165
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:40 am
Location: Seattle

Post by cashto »

Tyrh wrote:QUOTE (Tyrh @ Feb 15 2013, 01:57 PM) The real problem with game points is that they are heavily slotted to just whoring, which is important of course but obviously not the only thing.
Actually they're heavily weighted towards exploring the map initially. You get a point for every rock you spot ...

Back when I was a newbie I would routinely get the top of the leaderboard ... just because I would scout like the *#$@ens at the very beginning of the game. Gave me the warm fuzzies it was supposed to, I guess.

Anyways I'll pass on this AllegSkill thread, I'm sure there'll be another one around shortly. Except to say that insofar as AllegSkill is supposed to measure and predict the outcome of games, it would be nice to have a chart of the past 30 days rolling average, what % of games AllegSkill predicts correctly. That way, we can actually have some solid data on whether it's doing the job it was designed to do.
Globemaster_III wrote:QUOTE (Globemaster_III @ Jan 11 2018, 11:27 PM) as you know i think very little of cashto, cashto alway a flying low pilot, he alway flying a trainer airplane and he rented
Spunkmeyer
Posts: 2013
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 7:00 am
Location: Contact me regarding: CC, Slayer and AllegWiki.

Post by Spunkmeyer »

cashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ Feb 15 2013, 05:13 PM) Except to say that insofar as AllegSkill is supposed to measure and predict the outcome of games, it would be nice to have a chart of the past 30 days rolling average, what % of games AllegSkill predicts correctly. That way, we can actually have some solid data on whether it's doing the job it was designed to do.
Yes, we need studies on the data, and carefully designed ones that actually tell you something.

Intuitively, if we can detect a threshold e for the rank delta, when it's below that threshold we know the size of our sliding window. Using arbitrary numbers or yearly rank resets is not the solution.

But all this is just icing on the cake we don't even need to worry about. There are fundamental problems like how it doesn't account for the commander and how team-picking is still the overriding factor. Much bigger issues.


Want bigger games? Log on to play at the official game time: 9pmET/8pmCT/7pmMT/6pmPT every day of the week. Also Saturdays 8pm UTC.

cashto
Posts: 3165
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:40 am
Location: Seattle

Post by cashto »

If we had that data, and if we had data that an alternate ranking algorithm could beat Allegskill in terms of predicting game outcomes, that makes the debate real simple, as far as I'm concerned.
Globemaster_III wrote:QUOTE (Globemaster_III @ Jan 11 2018, 11:27 PM) as you know i think very little of cashto, cashto alway a flying low pilot, he alway flying a trainer airplane and he rented
SunTzu
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:05 pm
Location: Asgård

Post by SunTzu »

Cashto I know about the points for spotting rocks. And it's not that much considering podded a player is equal to scouting a sector and you can only scout a sector once.

An option along those lines is to give more points for spotting bases, since they are now technically harder to spot and aren't automagically revealed.


As for study, well, the system of ranking as we have at this very moment is really, really bad.

Particularly with the rank reset.

We need some viable changes now.
---
phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Feb 15 2013, 01:52 PM) In a lot of ways, Allegiance is like the Radio: it's all `am and `fm.
zombywoof
Posts: 6523
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:59 am
Location: Over the Rainbow

Post by zombywoof »

STACKSTACKSTACKSTACKSTACK

ALLEGSKILLSUCKSALLEGSKILLSUCKSALLEGSKILLSUCKS

ELOSUCKSELOSUCKS

WEDONTUSEELOWEDONTUSEELO

STACKSTACKSTACKSTACKSTACK

There, I have summed up what this thread will become. `yr
Image
Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
Post Reply