Greece - demise of the eurozone as we know it?

Adept · Post by **Adept** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:15 am

lexaal wrote:QUOTE (lexaal @ Jul 24 2012, 11:07 PM) Greece is a hopeless case, and i challenge the number crunchers out there: compare the greeke total debt from before the moment EU started to sink money into them with the current debt. I believe we now paid more than we would have paid by bailing them out asap, or by bailing out our banking system.

A straight out sovereign default by Greek would have been honest and healthy. It is coming anyway, I think. Actually I suspect a global systemic collapse and new currencies all around the globe is coming in the near future.

JimmyNighthawk · Post by **JimmyNighthawk** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:44 pm

"Seriously ... the people living in Greece have nothing to do with the @#(! comming from the markets."

Camaro · Post by **Camaro** » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:04 am

A sovereign nation cannot technically default on its debts...

Of course... if a nation doesn't have control over its own economic life blood (monetary supply)... it is questionable if they are really even sovereign.

The grassroots campaign in America to enact sound monetary policy is slowly taking hold... hopefully it continues to grow... our current fiat monetary course is completely unsustainable and unhealthy.

takingarms1 · Post by **takingarms1** » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:53 pm

Camaro wrote:QUOTE (Camaro @ Jul 25 2012, 10:04 PM) A sovereign nation cannot technically default on its debts...

Why not? Sovereign immunity? Most states, US included, have passed laws that abrogate that doctrine.

It's sort of splitting hairs though because even if a sovereign state couldn't technically default, a failure to make a payment would cause anybody thinking about lending that sovereign more money to seriously question doing so. So even if the sovereign didn't "default" in technical terms, the failure to pay the debt would have the same net effect.

And of course I disagree with your stance on fiat currency. I think the real problem in the US and the world is the current structure and legal doctrine of the corporate entity. I think there needs to be serious reform into corporate forms and the laws relating to them, as most of the bad @#(! that's going down right now is due to the fact that corporations aren't people but are treated by the law as if they are. This leads to all kinds of ludicrous notions, like the idea that corporate officers have no obligations to anyone other than shareholders and the corporation itself, meaning any attempt to do anything that isn't in the interest of increasing profits is essentially a violation of a corporate officer's duty. Greed, in essence, becomes not only the end goal of the leaders of the corporation, but the morally required course. It also leads to the corporate employees, officers included, being able to mentally compartmentalize their moral culpability for decision making by saying, "hey its my job to look out for the corporation, and its best interests, so even though this action might be morally questionable, it is legal and in the corporations bests interests so I have to do it." It then becomes easy to just say you're a cog in a machine, and blame the system, and remove yourself from the equation. Its no wonder resulting corporate behavior is so amoral.

Camaro · Post by **Camaro** » Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:29 am

TakingArms wrote:QUOTE (TakingArms @ Jul 26 2012, 01:53 PM) Why not? Sovereign immunity? Most states, US included, have passed laws that abrogate that doctrine.

It's sort of splitting hairs though because even if a sovereign state couldn't technically default, a failure to make a payment would cause anybody thinking about lending that sovereign more money to seriously question doing so. So even if the sovereign didn't "default" in technical terms, the failure to pay the debt would have the same net effect.

And of course I disagree with your stance on fiat currency. I think the real problem in the US and the world is the current structure and legal doctrine of the corporate entity. I think there needs to be serious reform into corporate forms and the laws relating to them, as most of the bad @#(! that's going down right now is due to the fact that corporations aren't people but are treated by the law as if they are. This leads to all kinds of ludicrous notions, like the idea that corporate officers have no obligations to anyone other than shareholders and the corporation itself, meaning any attempt to do anything that isn't in the interest of increasing profits is essentially a violation of a corporate officer's duty. Greed, in essence, becomes not only the end goal of the leaders of the corporation, but the morally required course. It also leads to the corporate employees, officers included, being able to mentally compartmentalize their moral culpability for decision making by saying, "hey its my job to look out for the corporation, and its best interests, so even though this action might be morally questionable, it is legal and in the corporations bests interests so I have to do it." It then becomes easy to just say you're a cog in a machine, and blame the system, and remove yourself from the equation. Its no wonder resulting corporate behavior is so amoral.

Well, a sovereign country can print money... so it can repay its debts in fairly useless money unless it gets too out of hand. Plus it has the ability to tax... so it takes an extreme case to actually get to the point of default.

Your stance on controlling the economy may work... but I prefer simplicity to regulatory complexity. My solution will achieve most of what you want simply because it will be riskier to embark upon risky ventures without easy credit. Although I do agree that treating corporations as individuals is probably more of a detriment than a benefit.

Also, your proposed policies do absolutely nothing to encourage saving... which is necessary for a strong, sustainable, economy.

I like to focus on the source of problems, most people like to focus on the more tangible symptoms of the problem. Why treat something indefinitely when you can alleviate what is causing the symptoms? Not saying that my proposed system would be without flaw, because of course it won't, but over the long term it should make for a much more stable economy.

takingarms1 · Post by **takingarms1** » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:41 pm

Oh I'm not necessarily advocating increased regulation, just changing the way the corporate form works. Right now there's already a huge body of law on the corporate entity and how it works. I'm saying we change some of it.

MoGas · Post by **MoGas** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:47 pm

you guys know how island handled the situation?
Bloomberg