Greece - demise of the eurozone as we know it?

[MoGas]

QUOTE (fuzzylunkin1 @ Jul 8 2012, 03:08 AM) I think it is a lack of education, though not in the "traditional" sense. I think education can solve all of these problems, where we teach people to think properly and for themselves. But perhaps I expect too much from individuals -- it seems people enjoy being manipulated.

I think its not about single individuals, ist about societies. societies are large groups of people, and they make up their own rules.
I think theres a lot of group dynamics going on. If everyone is doing stuff one way, why should individuals start doing stuff the other way,
if thats disadvantageous to then, even if it would benefit society.

Its like in the Prisoner's dilemma



This is a tough question. I am about to order this book, I was told its an interesting read.
Why Nations Fail: The Origins of Power, Prosperity, and Poverty

[MoGas]

QUOTE (Camaro @ Jul 8 2012, 03:54 AM) Retain your sovereignty. Retain your nations identities. Government is best that governs within the ideals of its citizens... I doubt that Germany will have your best interests in mind.

We come in peace.

[fuzzylunkin1]

The Germans got me, too (well, half of me). Curse ancestry leading back to some similar geographical location.

I am American, and you can, too.

Of course, my German ancestors left their homeland for a reason (pre-WWI/II)

[Adept]

QUOTE (Camaro @ Jul 8 2012, 04:54 AM) Has Europe not learned anything? Even now the dominant power is Germany. Do you really think that under a Federalized EU that Germany won't control the government?

LOL! You just went off the deep end there Camaro. I expect comments like that from 70 year old conspiracy nuts, but not from you. Do check out the double majority voting system in place at the EU. Germany is a big player in the european project, but it does nothing like "control the government".

[lexaal]

QUOTE (Adept @ Jul 8 2012, 01:06 PM) LOL! You just went off the deep end there Camaro. I expect comments like that from 70 year old conspiracy nuts, but not from you. Do check out the double majority voting system in place at the EU. Germany is a big player in the european project, but it does nothing like "control the government".

Yes. The EU "gouvernment" has become already uncontrollable. Not even Germany can change that.

[Camaro]

QUOTE (Adept @ Jul 8 2012, 02:06 AM) LOL! You just went off the deep end there Camaro. I expect comments like that from 70 year old conspiracy nuts, but not from you. Do check out the double majority voting system in place at the EU. Germany is a big player in the european project, but it does nothing like "control the government".

It is much harder to control the quasi-Confederacy that the EU represents.

If the EU were to ever further integrate, it would likely have to form a Federal government where a central government exerts significant power over its member-states (similar to how nations currently have states/cantons/etc. within their borders under the control of a more powerful central government). I am not saying that Germany would control it from day one, but there is a massive chance that eventually the UK/France/Germany would essentially call the shots...

Especially since those three are the ones with the dominant military presences of Europe...

[Adept]

Check back in 20 years Camaro. I'd take your bet.

[GhostMachine]

QUOTE (MoGas @ Jul 7 2012, 05:06 PM) I dont think this is a story about a lack of education and information.
I think its a story about politicians wanting to get re-elected, evading the reforms that need to be done (in the past), piling up more and more debt and getting away with it.
I think its a story about investors buying greek bonds not believing in the no-bail-out clause in the euro treaties and getting away with it.
I think its a story about banks privatising huge benefits and letting the tax payer pay for their losses.
I think its a story about moral hazard.

FYI Did you know that greek ship owners dont pay taxes? Thats fixed in their constitution.

Maybe its a story about political culture.
Maybe its a story about vocal minorities (for instance tax driver) defending their advantages.

btw you still on the phone?

THANK YOU! This is more like it!

[JimmyNighthawk]

QUOTE (MoGas @ Jul 8 2012, 09:07 AM) We come in Peace

[lexaal]

Greece is a hopeless case, and i challenge the number crunchers out there: compare the greeke total debt from before the moment EU started to sink money into them with the current debt. I believe we now paid more than we would have paid by bailing them out asap, or by bailing out our banking system.