Greece - demise of the eurozone as we know it?

[fuzzylunkin1]

I'm also not sure if anyone here consider grants to be a type of scholarship. I know here in Wisconsin they are separate, and grants are very very helpful... they don't hand them out to anyone, just those that actually need the help. They are of course losing funding every year (which is laughable because tuition goes up every year -- the University of Wisconsin Madison increases tuition by the maximum possible every year). bigbellydude has no reason to avoid acquiring financial aid, though I'm not sure what he includes in "scholarships." If he doesn't get grants, someone else will... perhaps that someone else would do more good to society, because there seems to be a better chance that they would give back to society.

Regarding the idea of "California going bankrupt," the rest of the country certainly wouldn't just turn their backs on them. That's just like saying we should turn our backs on people who are victims of natural disasters. Most citizens play no fault in the larger problems that affect them, and it's them we should be helping. Not necessarily the people who cause the problems. There is a reason we are "United" States. Do we have a "United" Europe yet? I sure hope that day comes.

Forgive me, I'm typing on a phone.

[MoGas]

QUOTE (fuzzylunkin1 @ Jul 7 2012, 07:51 PM) Regarding the idea of "California going bankrupt," the rest of the country certainly wouldn't just turn their backs on them. That's just like saying we should turn our backs on people who are victims of natural disasters. Most citizens play no fault in the larger problems that affect them, and it's them we should be helping. Not necessarily the people who cause the problems. There is a reason we are "United" States. Do we have a "United" Europe yet? I sure hope that day comes.

Well as far as I know is this exactly what happened after your Revolutionary War against the brits back in 1783. The cost of the war was actually divided between the states,
which made perfectly sense beceause you were fighting for your freedom.

But in the years after the war some states thought they still could get bailouts.
They were wrong and 8 states went bankrupt. So by now everyone knows the game and plays accordingly.

And this is the main point in europe. This is not a one-shot-game.
You need to set the rules in the beginning, and you need to gain some credibility.
This is the only way a hopefully indefinite game can work out. Its about the future.

I am using the term "game" in the sense of economic game theory here which models ecnomic behaviour of different actors.
I know its not a game for the pupulation in greece who is having a real hard time.

[fuzzylunkin1]

QUOTE (MoGas @ Jul 7 2012, 01:33 PM) Well as far as I know is this exactly what happened after your Revolutionary War against the brits back in 1783. The cost of the war was actually divided between the states,
which made perfectly sense beceause you were fighting for your freedom.

But in the years after the war some states thought they still could get bailouts.
They were wrong and 8 states went bankrupt. So by now everyone knows the game and plays accordingly.

And this is the main point in europe. This is not a one-shot-game.
You need to set the rules in the beginning, and you need to gain some credibility.
This is the only way a hopefully indefinite game can work out. Its about the future.

I am using the term "game" in the sense of economic game theory here which models ecnomic behaviour of different actors.
I know its not a game for the pupulation in greece who is having a real hard time.

States also left the union, leading to our Civil War. I think we've got a different sort of mentality now. Sometimes it takes drastic measures to learn the lesson. The question is, how far are you willing to let it go? And why didn't you try to prevent it? The way I see it, it's not "Oh look, Greece $#@!ed up" but rather "Oh look, we let Greece $#@! up." The fact of the matter is, we are all human and we are letting differences get in the way of progress. Say you have a younger brother who makes a huge mistake and his life is spiraling down... what are your options with him?
Ignore the situation. Perhaps the easiest thing to do, but hardly useful for anything.Give him a bunch of help, without any guidelines on how to use it, perhaps in the form of money. This might work, assuming he learned from his mistakes, but that is not necessarily a safe assumption. Some might say he deserves what life gives him, but they don't take into cionsideration the fact that we have families and societies for a reason: to help each other survive, leading to the next option.Educate him on how to survive in the world. This does not mean telling him what to do, because we surely do not know what is best for him. You simply make sure he is scientifically literate, so he knows how to question things and make his own properly thought-out decisions on things. This helps you survive as a family, and can easily be applied to our species as a whole if we can get over our differences. The problem here is not that he wont listen, but that you may not want to teach him.
Again, typing on a phone .

[MoGas]

QUOTE (fuzzylunkin1 @ Jul 7 2012, 09:33 PM) States also left the union, leading to our Civil War. I think we've got a different sort of mentality now. Sometimes it takes drastic measures to learn the lesson. The question is, how far are you willing to let it go? And why didn't you try to prevent it? The way I see it, it's not "Oh look, Greece $#@!ed up" but rather "Oh look, we let Greece $#@! up." The fact of the matter is, we are all human and we are letting differences get in the way of progress. Say you have a younger brother who makes a huge mistake and his life is spiraling down... what are your options with him?

I think its incredibly hard to decide whats actually the best thing to right now. We got loads of moral hazard going on. Ill try to break it down like this

First and foremost
I dont picture Greece as a younger brother. Greece is a democracy. The Greek people are very proud. But I have the impression that greece is a failed nation, at least to some extent.
Their tax collection is close to nonexistant. Theres bribery all over the place. Their government is way too large. They have no business plan. They bureaucracy is epic. They are not competive. Turkey is just around the corner, and europeans spend their holidays in turkey rather that in greece, because its 30% cheaper.

So why is that? Greece as a nation needs to find out what they want to do. Maybe they need reforms. Maybe they need to improve their government. I personally think they do. But its up to them. You cannot force such harsh measures from outside. Its something the greek society needs to decide.

I refuse to be the benevolent dictator. Or the big brother telling the younger brother what to do. I think they can do it.

Edit
I think Greece should go the Iceland way.

[fuzzylunkin1]

QUOTE (MoGas @ Jul 7 2012, 02:56 PM) I think its incredibly hard to decide whats actually the best thing to right now. We got loads of moral hazard going on. Ill try to break it down like this
...
I refuse to be the benevolent dictator. Or the big brother telling the younger brother what to do. I think they can do it.

I never said anyone should tell Greece what to do or make decisions for him. In fact, I said "This does not mean telling him what to do, because we surely do not know what is best for him. You simply make sure he is scientifically literate, so he knows how to question things and make his own properly thought-out decisions on things."

QUOTE I dont picture Greece as a younger brother.[/quote]
Neither do I, it could have been anyone. I only said "younger brother" because we, for some reason, deem family more important than other humans. The fact is you have an "us" and "them" mentality about it. Nothing will improve when you think like this.


EDIT:
In a way, I think I have a very simple "Libertarian" point of view about it, much more simple than things like "federal vs state government." Know one knows what is best for anyone else. Doesn't mean we can't educate and inform.

[Adept]

QUOTE (fuzzylunkin1 @ Jul 7 2012, 08:51 PM) Do we have a "United" Europe yet? I sure hope that day comes.

Going more in that direction, and I don't see any reason to fear it. The EU has been very useful, giving teeth to environmental legislation, helping us collectively have more say (soft power) on the world stage and all that. European nations working together was and is a very good idea.

[MoGas]

QUOTE (fuzzylunkin1 @ Jul 7 2012, 10:09 PM) The fact is you have an "us" and "them" mentality about it. Nothing will improve when you think like this.


EDIT:
In a way, I think I have a very simple "Libertarian" point of view about it, much more simple than things like "federal vs state government." Know one knows what is best for anyone else. Doesn't mean we can't educate and inform.

I dont think this is a story about a lack of education and information.
I think its a story about politicians wanting to get re-elected, evading the reforms that need to be done (in the past), piling up more and more debt and getting away with it.
I think its a story about investors buying greek bonds not believing in the no-bail-out clause in the euro treaties and getting away with it.
I think its a story about banks privatising huge benefits and letting the tax payer pay for their losses.
I think its a story about moral hazard.

FYI Did you know that greek ship owners dont pay taxes? Thats fixed in their constitution.

Maybe its a story about political culture.
Maybe its a story about vocal minorities (for instance tax driver) defending their advantages.

btw you still on the phone?

[MoGas]

QUOTE (Adept @ Jul 7 2012, 10:19 PM) Going more in that direction, and I don't see any reason to fear it. The EU has been very useful, giving teeth to environmental legislation, helping us collectively have more say (soft power) on the world stage and all that. European nations working together was and is a very good idea.

thats right, we just need to sort out a few things right now.

[fuzzylunkin1]

QUOTE (MoGas @ Jul 7 2012, 04:06 PM) I dont think this is a story about a lack of education and information.
I think its a story about politicians wanting to get re-elected, evading the reforms that need to be done (in the past), piling up more and more debt and getting away with it.
I think its a story about investors buying greek bonds not believing in the no-bail-out clause in the euro treaties and getting away with it.
I think its a story about banks privatising huge benefits and letting the tax payer pay for their losses.
I think its a story about moral hazard.

I think it is a lack of education, though not in the "traditional" sense. I think education can solve all of these problems, where we teach people to think properly and for themselves. But perhaps I expect too much from individuals -- it seems people enjoy being manipulated.

QUOTE btw you still on the phone? [/quote]
Haha nope but I can't believe I managed to type a lot of that on a phone with so few errors. Hardware keyboard on the HTC G2 FTW

[Camaro]

QUOTE (bigbellydude @ Jul 6 2012, 04:13 PM) Well, here is where it gets very stupid. My dad gets social security, about $3000 every month or so. Seems like a lot? It's not. Add mortgage, credit card loans (my parents were caught in that "trap" for the longest time) insurance for various different things, and some bad business deals, and you don't even have enough money for food. All our food is from food banks etc. However, because my parents total annual *income* is higher than meets the "poor" standard, we aren't eligible for any benefits. Pretty stupid, if you ask me. My dad is on Medicare, but that is just him because he is a senior and a vet.

Scholarships are not socialist. Why? Because most of them are based off of some sort of merit. Not all of them, but most of them. Joe Schmoe from down the street can't just apply for a scholarship and go to college, he has to prove some things first. It is actually a lot like submitting a resume for a job opportunity.

No, scholarships would only be like socialism if the government controlled it, and made everyone else "pay" for it through taxes. Take Texas for example. Not only was Texas using tax-payer dollars for a scholarship fund, they were giving those scholarships to illegal aliens! But that's another story entirely.

I actually don't know about Medicaid in 2014. If it will pay for health insurance for myself and my family, great. I need a few X-rays in my ankles, braces, and a general check-up; I haven't had a doctor take a real good look at me for more than 10 years.

I think we can all agree on one thing: Washington DC and quite a few of the world governments are rather corrupt. And that is where the real problem lies.

You are talking about Medicaid, I am talking about the subsidies starting in 2014 for private medical insurance. It may not be a 100% subsidy, but it is still a help to many. The threshold for a family is well above
$36,000.

QUOTE (bigbellydude @ Jul 6 2012, 04:23 PM) Nope, we barely get by. We save every penny possible, which means limiting gas usage (car), not spending money on "entertainment" (amusement parks, toys, events, new anythings), and getting free food. We don't even go to the doctor if we are sick (even very sick) we look it up on the internet for "home remedies" and other cheap ways to stay healthy.

I might ask, what are the interest rates like in MA? Because here in California we have 10.5% Sales Tax, as well as numerous other high priced rates on just about any loan. Mostly the mortgage, which is what really burns us. And our house is very small, too. And old.

California sales tax is 7.25%

I am fully against the easy credit made available by fractional-reserve banking and central banks, I believe economies should be built on savings and hard work, not debt and phantom dollars.

QUOTE (bigbellydude @ Jul 6 2012, 06:42 PM) If Social Security hadn't ever come into existance BY THE SAME PRESIDENT WHO RUINED THE VALUE OF THE US DOLLAR for all time and eternity (a Democrat), my family wouldn't be in this fix. No Social Security = lower taxes. Pure and simple.

Social Security would have been just dandy if they had organized it as a pension fund since its inception, instead they just made it a Ponzi scheme.

Also, the Federal Reserve was created with encouragement from Teddy Roosevelt during the Wilson administration. It has been this organization that is primarily responsible for the destruction of the US dollar... anything Presidents and Congresses have done since then may have added to the problem, but certainly aren't the root cause.

QUOTE (Adept @ Jul 7 2012, 11:19 AM) Going more in that direction, and I don't see any reason to fear it. The EU has been very useful, giving teeth to environmental legislation, helping us collectively have more say (soft power) on the world stage and all that. European nations working together was and is a very good idea.

Has Europe not learned anything? Even now the dominant power is Germany. Do you really think that under a Federalized EU that Germany won't control the government?

Retain your sovereignty. Retain your nations identities. Government is best that governs within the ideals of its citizens... I doubt that Germany will have your best interests in mind.