Greece - demise of the eurozone as we know it?

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pkk
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Post by pkk »

TheCorsair wrote:QUOTE (TheCorsair @ May 27 2012, 11:27 PM) Wonder what you would of said if Morgethnau Merkel was imposed on you instead.
Someone would lead the communist party of France, instant of complaining about the people on this forum/game. Europe would be united under the soviet flag. ;)
The Escapist (Justin Emerson) @ Dec 21 2010, 02:33 PM:
The history of open-source Allegiance is paved with the bodies of dead code branches, forum flame wars, and personal vendettas. But a community remains because people still love the game.
Camaro
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Post by Camaro »

You ever ponder what would have happened if Germany had won the war and the anti-Semite nationalism fervor of the Nazi party was replaced with a post-war representative democracy under the Germanic Eurasian Empire (Europe, Middle East, Northern Africa, Soviet Union)?
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TheCorsair
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Post by TheCorsair »

I'm from Niger Vortrog. Next when I have an argument that supports that the Holocaust really did happen maybe I'll go to my homeland in Isreal too.. seriously vortrog how inept can you get.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/2...h?newsfeed=true

Greece can do without the 'sympathy' the IMF has shown Niger

Christine Lagarde's crass comments on Greece have caused an understandable furore in that country. But in Niger, there must be just as much contempt for the IMF director. For in dismissing the plight of mothers in Greece, Lagarde also said she felt more sympathy for "the little kids from a school in a little village in Niger".

If "sympathy" is what characterises the IMF's approach to Niger, then Greece would do better to avoid it. Niger comes into news headlines on a fairly regular basis – associated as it is with cycles of famine and constantly high levels of malnutrition. Less reported is the role of the IMF, along with sister organisation the World Bank, in fuelling this suffering.

Niger was a victim of the IMF's now infamous Structural Adjustment Programme from 1982 and remains under an IMF programme to this day. As in Greece, the IMF loaned money to Niger to bail out Niger's creditors. Nothing was said as to how valid this debt was, an important question because it was under the military governments from 1974 that loans really started flowing.

Loans repaid debt and, as in Europe today, the ordinary people of Niger had to pay the price for reckless lending through austerity and a series of economic reforms. We get an indication of the impact of these policies by looking at agriculture.

Most people in Niger live off the land. The IMF and World Bank prioritise exporting as a vital means of earning foreign currency to repay debt. This is normally put into effect by ripping open the food sector to the volatility of international markets. Subsidised imported food floods in, destroying the suddenly unprotected agricultural sector.

Combined with austerity, such policies had a devastating impact. When food prices are low, the real impact can be masked. But when they rise, people realise all too quickly how vulnerable their food supply is. Djibo Bagna, president of the Peasant Association of Niger, believes structural adjustment ruined Nigerien agriculture: "Of course, when this sector involves 85% of the population, this has consequences: lower production, a rural exodus, growing slums."

Nor did a programme of austerity and liberalisation reduce debt levels – any more than it is doing in Greece. Niger's debts continued to rise from $960m when structural adjustment started, to $1.8bn in 1990, and then, after falling off a little, an all-time high of $2.1bn in 2003. More debt meant more control by the IMF, which meant more austerity and more reforms.

After many years, debt cancellation for Niger was seen, even by the IMF, as unavoidable. Debt relief allowed Niger to improve education and increase access to safe drinking water. But it came with strings. A 19% sales tax on basic foods and rapidly rising prices put food further out of the reach of ordinary people. The sale of emergency grain reserves, a policy that has already caused famine in Malawi in 2002, did further damage to the population's vulnerability.

These policies fed into the 2005 famine, a crisis caused not primarily by natural catastrophe – food was available but unaffordable – but by an appalling set of policy decisions. Even during a crisis there was no let-up in economic dogma. The IMF told the Niger government not to distribute free food to those most in need. Today's so-called "tough love" to Greece is nothing new.

Lagarde says: "It's sometimes harder to tell the government of low-income countries… to actually strengthen the budget and reduce the deficit." Hard but not impossible it seems, despite the impact it has had on poverty and inequality time and again.

The desperate impact of IMF policies on Niger has not even achieved the purported chief objective of the IMF – to control debt. In a Jubilee report released last week, we found that 10 years after debt cancellation, Niger's debt payments as a proportion of government revenue are projected to be the same level as they were before cancellation. IMF attempts to "restructure" Niger have failed even in these terms.

To pretend that the IMF operated in a somehow kinder way towards Niger than it is doing in Greece stands up to no scrutiny whatever. The IMF's policies cannot assist countries in crisis. Greece can learn from this – and has little to gain from Lagarde's "sympathy".
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Post by TheCorsair »

The UK was right to not enter the Euro.

Oh wow Vortrog, Nigel Farage is Greek.. guess what his real surnmame must me Faragopoulos.

UKIP Nigel Farage - Greece being destroyed by EU fanatical ideology
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFlYhUkO2uU

Yes Vortog, I'm going back to my homeland in London too.
Last edited by TheCorsair on Tue May 29, 2012 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by pkk »

Last edited by pkk on Tue May 29, 2012 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Escapist (Justin Emerson) @ Dec 21 2010, 02:33 PM:
The history of open-source Allegiance is paved with the bodies of dead code branches, forum flame wars, and personal vendettas. But a community remains because people still love the game.
TheCorsair
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Post by TheCorsair »

Oh look Vortroll... there's another Australian interested in the euro crisis... wow Alan Kohler must be going back to his Greek homeland soon too hey

Kohler: a Greek tragedy Tasmania can relate to
http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/05/29/kohler...-can-relate-to/

Kohler: a Greek tragedy Tasmania can relate to
by Alan Kohler

“Prime Minister, Lara Giddings is on line two. She’s babbling something about wanting to leave the Aussiezone.”

“Hi Lara, it’s Julia. What’s up?”

“Listen, Julia, we’ve been thinking… the only way we can kick start the Tasmanian economy and have at least one Labor Party with a pulse in this country, is to devalue our currency. We need to leave the Aussiezone. It’ll work, I’m sure of it!”

“Jesus Lara, you’re such an idiot.”

“Seriously Julia, unemployment here is 8.3% and rising. I’m borrowing $6 million a week and I’ve got no hope of getting the budget back above zero. The banks are shouting at me. I’ve had to sack 250 nurses for Christ’s sake! They’ll vote in the anti-austerity Greens!”

“Calm down Lara, you’re getting hysterical. Look, economics is all Greek to me, but I’ve been reading Karen Maley and I know that if you bring back the Tasmanian peso and devalue it, that’ll wipe out everyone’s savings and make everything they buy from the mainland – which is everything – really expensive.”

“At least the poor buggers will have a job cutting down trees and making toys, and we’d have lots of tourism. And I could flog cheap power across Bass Strait and get the budget back into surplus. Honestly Julia I’m at my wits end. Please let us do it. Either that or get Colin Barnett to give me a bailout.”

“Oh God, I can’t talk to that appalling man, and anyway he’d have to ask Gina Rinehart’s permission and look what she’s just done to her kids. Think what she’d do to you! Look, I’ll talk to Wayne about it. He knows about these things. Maybe he can cook up an acronym for you, as cover for a handout. I’ll get back to you.”

“Thanks Julia, you’re a pal.” Hangs up. “Wayne!”

The fact that the pro-austerity, pro-euro parties are now on top in the polls in Greece buoyed markets last night, but the options for Europe remain limited and difficult — especially if Greece stays in.

The immediate, core problem in Europe is the banking system, which has been rendered under-capitalised and dysfunctional as a result of cross-border euro lending since 1993, as well as real estate bubbles in Spain and Ireland. As a result of that, the money transmission mechanism across Europe is broken.

Longer term, of course, the problem is the same as Tasmania’s: the lack of competitiveness of smaller states within the monetary union. But the first step for Europe’s leaders is to fix the banking system and get the banks lending again.

Step one: they need to be recapitalised from the centre. The equity markets won’t do it, not for a long time at least. The European Central Bank is advocating completing the European Banking Resolution Fund, possible using money from the European Stability Mechanism. If the banks can be recapitalised, as America’s were in 2008-09, then lending can start flowing again.

Getting deposits to stay put is more difficult. Some are advocating a deposit insurance scheme to prevent bank runs, but it’s not clear how that would work against losses caused by currency devaluations following an exit from the eurozone. That sort of scheme would amount to massive fiscal risk transfers between European nations, which Germany is dead against.

The ECB could do another long term refinancing operation, but the banks’ problem is not liquidity, it’s solvency. In fact the banks are awash with cash from the last LTRO – it’s just been deposited back with the ECB.

In the meantime, until the banks can be recapitalised, there probably needs to be a new lender of first resort created. Some are suggesting that the ESM be granted a banking licence, others reckon it should be done by the creation of eurobonds.

Meanwhile, the EU needs to do more to boost growth in periphery. So far the European Investment Bank’s capital has been boosted by €10 billion, which is expected to result in €15 billion per year in new infrastructure projects to boost employment, but that merely injects about the same amount across Europe as the Spanish fiscal consolidation alone withdraws.

Whatever, Germany is against it, on the basis that it would represent monetary financing of fiscal deficits.

To produce a sustained recovery in global markets the overriding need in Europe is not to persuade Greece to stay in, but to persuade Germany to allow the pace of fiscal adjustment to slow down, and perhaps even reverse for a while.

Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy need to be given longer to return their budget deficits to 3% of GDP, by both the EU and the bond market. That comes back to Germany, since the bond markets won’t support those countries on their own.

What Germany is ignoring is that banks and sovereigns are being forced to deleverage simultaneously. That is is producing a vicious downward spiral as fiscal multipliers fall to one-to-one (a dollar of budget reduction is a dollar off GDP) and debt reduction by both the governments and the banks becomes a moving target because the economy is shrinking.

Somehow the periphery countries need growth, and they won’t get through austerity. Just ask Lara Giddings.
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Post by TheCorsair »

pkk wrote:QUOTE (pkk @ May 29 2012, 11:19 PM) I like Nigel Farage:

"UK is an artificial construction as a nation, ..." :rofl:
The German Confederation (German: Deutscher Bund) was the loose association of Central European states created by the Congress of Vienna in 1815 to coordinate the economies of separate German-speaking countries. It acted as a buffer between the powerful states of Austria and Prussia. Britain approved of it because London felt that there was need for a stable, peaceful power in central Europe that could discourage aggressive moves by France or Russia. According to Lee (1985), most historians have judged the Confederation to be weak and ineffective, as well as an obstacle to German nationalist aspirations. It collapsed due to the rivalry between Prussia and Austria (known as German dualism), warfare, the 1848 revolution, and the inability of the multiple members to compromise.
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Post by TheCorsair »

Makes sense to me.. they share a common currency, have common bonds...otherwise Germany please go back to your deutchmark!!! I'd love to see how successful your exports are then

Oh look what's happened in Greece is happening in Spain now

‘Astonished’ Merkel says no to Eurobonds
High yield spreads undercut reforms, says Spain’s Rajoy
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/astonishe...=MW_latest_news

Germany and France lock horns over Euro debt crisis
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2012/s3510492.htm

get the ECB to act like the Fed does... or there is no way the euro can work.
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Camaro
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Post by Camaro »

Monetary supply, while rarely at the forefront of politics, is an extremely powerful factor in both the economic and political well-being of a nation. To surrender sovereignty to a bloc on such an important element of a nation is beyond my comprehension.

As to TC, the ECB should not be like the Fed. The Fed acts as a central bank to only two nations (United States, and defacto Panama). Since Panama has no real central bank and its only currency is imported dollars (that it gets via exports), it isn't really comparable to a bloc central bank like the ECB whose fiduciary duty is to maintain the Euro... not baby its member states. That being said, it has failed on its duty just as the Fed has failed its duty and pretty much every central bank in existence.
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Post by TheCorsair »

Spain in trouble.. Germany again wants to preach whilst they get zero interest debt


Spain's Rajoy fights losing battle to stave off EU rescue
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment...-EU-rescue.html

He wants mobilisation of the EU bail-out fund to recapitalise weak banks across Euroland, lessening the stigma for states in crisis. This amounts to EU debt-pooling -- a variant of eurobonds -- and has been vetoed by Germany.

Officials say privately that Mr Rajoy fears EU suzerainty if Spain is forced to seek a bail-out, losing sovereign control of policy -- like Greece, Ireland, and Portugal.

I don't blame him! look how that's working out
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