Greece - demise of the eurozone as we know it?

[takingarms1]

QUOTE (Gandalf2 @ May 25 2012, 07:25 PM) Sure their system isn't great and needs reform. However to say this "Before they do that, they are asking Greece to get its spending in order. Greece is refusing to do that" isn't really representative of what "they" are asking of Greece. It's brutal, is having a really bad effect on people in Greece and is destroying what's left of their economy. Here's a list from wikipedia.

I don't see how you mean. The austerity packages are just spending cuts and tax increases. If greece doesnt get loans, that is what they're going to have to do anyway, except more so.

[raumvogel]

QUOTE (TakingArms @ May 25 2012, 09:20 PM) I don't see how you mean. The austerity packages are just spending cuts and tax increases. If greece doesnt get loans, that is what they're going to have to do anyway, except more so.

OMG...what a read.

[takingarms1]

How so? I mean tell me, what else is Greece supposed to do? Their alternative is to default, after which it will be even harder for them to get loans, and they're going to have to make these kinds of cuts and changes anyway, only they will have to be far deeper and more harsh. Or, they can hyper-inflate their currency (is that even still an option if all your loans are denominated in euros?). I'm not sure which would be more painful for the average Greek person. But really, how am I reading this wrong? I am honestly asking.

I looked at the wikipedia article. Most of that stuff is stuff that the USA either already practices (e.g. raised retirement age for social security pensions) or implemented during our "crisis" (wage freezes for gov't workers, wage cuts for gov't workers, etc).

Or, they could just balance their budget today and tell all the loan sharks to go fish. That would require spending cuts and tax increases. It's a crazy thought I know, but maybe they should try it and then they can actually be masters of their own destiny.

[Broodwich]

yeah because its so easy in our country

[TheCorsair]

The Euro is overvalued for countries like Greece. The point is the bailout money are loans of which a profit is made of with priority to debt servicing in other words to the banks.

The current European attitude was best captured by a document that was circulated as part of the now-abandoned German proposal to force Greece to accept a “budget commissar” to supervise its spending.

“Greece has to legally commit itself to giving absolute priority to future debt service,” said the document, said to have been circulated by German officials. “State revenues are to be used first and foremost for debt service.” Whatever money was left over could be used for other purposes, such as paying police salaries or purchasing hospital supplies.

Banks Come First in a Greek Rescue Plan
It now appears that Europe is prepared to pay what it needs to pay to save its banks. But not to rescue Greece.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/10/business...?pagewanted=all

This is a Euro structural problem which Germany yes Germany calls the shots here..... cannot or does not want to grasp.

[TheCorsair]

Eurozone crisis: if Greece goes, Germany's prosperity goes with it
If the eurozone were to shrink, Germany's once-captive markets would become too poor to import: and the rapid appreciation of a stronger euro would make its exports much pricier
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/ma...y?newsfeed=true

Germany last week found itself able to borrow for two years at the astonishingly low rate of 0.07%. Very nice too: but surely the real message Angela Merkel and her colleagues must take from the successful auction of those zero-coupon schatz bunds is that the single currency simply isn't working.

All the money wants to flow in one direction: towards Germany. It is only the efforts of the European Central Bank, as a giant recycler of liquidity to dry areas of the eurozone banking system, that is ensuring a stability of sorts. This position can't be sustained.


Meanwhile we have Christine Laguarde head of the IMF who are International Mafia Fund more like it...giving thrift advice with her deep tropical tan, heavy gold earrings & costly Chanel suit

http://yfrog.com/klpsuoij

Nigel Farage @Nigel_Farage
Christine Lagarde's lack of sympathy towards Greece shows the true nature of this project #eurofail #Grexit

[TheCorsair]

QUOTE (TakingArms @ May 25 2012, 02:00 AM) Not that any of this is relevant, but...



His office address per his website is:

Economic History Department
London School of Economics
Clare Market Building, C415
Houghton Street
London WC2A 2AE, England

Per his CV he's been working at the London School of Economics for 5 years. Sorry, UK, you let him in and you employ him. I think you own him now!

You are truly an imbecile. A mere look at his CV and he is clearly German, went to Uni of Munich and is a German economic historian. If I was born in Australia and went to work in China as an adult it makes me Chinese now? You are truly a total clown.


Charges of hypocrisy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_financi...es_of_hypocrisy

Hypocrisy has been alleged on multiple bases. "Germany is coming across like a know-it-all in the debate over aid for Greece", commented Der Spiegel,[229] though German economic historian Albrecht Ritschl describes his country as "king when it comes to debt. Calculated based on the amount of losses compared to economic performance, Germany was the biggest debt transgressor of the 20th century."[229]

Despite calling for the Greeks to adhere to fiscal responsibility, and although Germany's tax revenues are at a record high, with the interest it has to pay on new debt at close to zero, Germany still missed its own cost-cutting targets in 2011 and is also falling behind on its goals for 2012.[230] There have been widespread accusations that Greeks are lazy, but analysis of OECD data shows that the average Greek worker puts in 50% more hours per year than their German counterpart,[231] and the average retirement age of a Greek is, at 61.7 years, older than that of a German.[232]

US economist Mark Weisbrot has also noted that while the eurozone giant's post-crisis recovery has been touted as an example of an economy of a country that "made the short-term sacrifices necessary for long-term success", Germany did not apply to its economy the harsh pro-cyclical austerity measures that are being imposed on countries like Greece,[233] In addition, he noted that Germany did not lay off hundreds of thousands of its workers despite a decline in output in its economy but reduced the number of working hours to keep them employed, at the same time as Greece and other countries were pressured to adopt measures to make it easier for employers to lay off workers.[233] Weisbrot concludes that the German recovery provides no evidence that the problems created by the use of a single currency in the eurozone can be solved by imposing "self-destructive" pro-cyclical policies as has been done in Greece and elsewhere.[233] Arms sales are another fountainhead for allegations of hypocrisy. Coalition MP Dimitris Papadimoulis:

If there is one country that has benefited from the huge amounts Greece spends on defence it is Germany. Just under 15% of Germany's total arms exports are made to Greece, its biggest market in Europe. Greece has paid over €2bn for submarines that proved to be faulty and which it doesn't even need. It owes another €1bn as part of the deal. That's three times the amount Athens was asked to make in additional pension cuts to secure its latest EU aid package. . . . Well after the economic crisis had begun, Germany and France were trying to seal lucrative weapons deals even as they were pushing us to make deep cuts in areas like health. . . . There's a level of hypocrisy here that is hard to miss. Corruption in Greece is frequently singled out as a cause for waste but at the same time companies like Ferrostaal and Siemens are pioneers in the practice.[234]

Yet even more hypocrisy stems not from the fact of the arms sales but from the way in which they conducted: Germany complains of Greek corruption, yet the murky arms sales meant that the trade with Greece became synonymous with high-level bribery and corruption; former defence minister Akis Tsochadzopoulos was gaoled in April 2012 ahead of his trial on charges of accepting an €8m bribe from Ferrostaal

Who is ferrostaal?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrostaal
Headquarters Essen, Germany

Who are Siemens?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens
Siemens AG (German pronunciation: [ˈziːməns]) is a German multinational conglomerate company headquartered in Munich, Germany.

Greek bribes, greek metro and traffic lights controversy

In 2008, it was revealed that Siemens had bribed the two main political parties of Greece for approximately 10 years to be the sole provider of mechanical and electrical equipment of the Greek state. After the apocalypsis the German authorities arrested the Siemens representatives of Greeks, who escaped from Greek authorities. German justice didn't allow the Greek justice to cross-question the representatives. As a result, typically there isn't any evidence against the corrupt politicians, they haven't been arrested and continue to be in the Greek political system. Meanwhile, the Greek state cancelled the planned trades. Since all the parts of mechanical equipment were provided by Siemens, the equipement eventually breaks down, like traffic lights, and the projects are abandoned like the metro expansion


There's much more but fakingbrains you are incapable, blocked you are like that inept fool

[takingarms1]

[Adept]

Charmer, isn't he.

[TheCorsair]

You would be hard-pressed to identify any shift in sentiment in Germany, however. Eurozone politicians had dinner in Brussels on Wednesday and most came away hungry. Mariano Rajoy in Spain is screaming that his country can't afford to keep paying 6% to borrow over 10 years. François Hollande in France and Mario Monti in Italy want to see the introduction of eurobonds, a system of joint issuance of debts. But their prayers have so far gone unanswered, because Germany is not persuaded, even after the rest of the world's most powerful leaders, led by Barack Obama, ganged up on Merkel at last weekend's G8 summit at Camp David.

Her reluctance is, of course, understandable. First, Germany's interest costs would rise, perhaps by €50bn a year, if eurozone members were to borrow collectively, instead of as individual countries. And in the event of one country suffering a crisis, stronger governments – for which read Germany – would be on the hook.

Second, eurobonds, at least in their purest incarnation, would require massively increased integration of eurozone tax and spending policies – probably far beyond even the terms of the Merkel-sponsored fiscal compact.

Third, German voters would still be likely to object: there remains a powerful myth that post-unification Germany pulled itself up by its own bootstraps and that the advantages of being part of the euro were merely coincidental.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/ma...y?newsfeed=true