Rix SR Scouts

[Adaven]

I've never fully agreed with Rix having separate SmallRip Scouts and regular scouts as DN introduced. I rather preferred the original MS implementation where every Rix scout could act as a teleport for other scouts (and only scouts) to rip to.

My proposed Changes:
-Make all Rix scouts act as a SmallRip and remove the Current $250 SR scouts
-Increase the amount of energy it costs for a Rix Fig to tele to a SmallRip from 1200 to 1201.
-Increase the amount of energy it costs for a Rix Hvy Scout to teleport to another SmallRip from 600 to 1200.
-Raise basic Rix Scout signature from .75 to 1.0. That's still lower than 1.2 sig of DN style SR scouts, but makes them a little easier to track down.

Balance Observations:
-Basic figs could no longer rip to basic scouts to offset the uber fig swarms possible with all scouts having SR. Note that enh/adv figs could still rip to any scout and reg figs could still rip to adv/hvy scouts. I can't remember, but basic figs on autopilot might still try to rip to reg scouts and get "aborted".
-SF's can rip now rip to any scout instead of just a subset of them, making a small boost to tac.
-Bomb and HTT runs get a boost because more nans can rip in as the runs are going.
-I've ran this idea by a few people and they all get worried about rix mini AC hvy scouts being able to rip to each other. The doubling of the RipCost should help slow the swarming down to more manageable levels and can be adjusted further if necessary. Besides, for the amount of hardware a rix hvy can support (2 mini-ac's, 2 pilots, & tp) it should take more energy than an adv scout to rip in anyways. You might also see more people actually use the turret slot this way.


I know A+ had a bit of trouble finding the perfect balance for this and had to do a lot of tinkering, but I would really like to see this method re-opened. I think it is worth trying work it out.

Discuss

[CronoDroid]

I dunno, I think Rix since I started playing tread a very fine line in terms of balance, in comparison to most factions it has probably by far the least amount of perks/nerfs applied to it since three years ago. On paper it seems incredibly strong but in practice most people can't fly it well enough that it remains balanced. Even in SGs IC is usually much better so there's not much of a problem there.

Usually I feel strongly about any sort of nerf to Rix...this is sort of middling, not really a nerf, not really a perk but a different interpretation. I've always said change for the sake of change probably should be avoided since for as long as I can remember Rix has never been broken until Rix Hvy Scout rushes became popular. I don't see that SR scouts need fixing so on the outset I disagree with the changes above.

On that note I'll analyse the above changes anyway.

Pros:
-More starting cash: Means you can buy Enh Con more often, afford an early techbase and less frequently run out of cash for bombers and such. It also saves you lots of money in the long run because you won't have noobs burning 500 pops on useless SRs. From what I've seen this stops Rix's econ from being too easy to manage, an inexperienced commander will sometimes waste thousands on SRs and hinder future growth.

-Not having to worry about handing out SRs. This has been a topic of consternation for many commanders. Now any random noob can potentially be an aid to miner offence just by being in the right place at the right time.

-Normal sig for scouts which mean it's easier to hide an SR'er in enemy sectors.

-Every scout is an SR which means the enemy will not know who to hunt down...yeah there are a few people who specialise in SR'ing like IB, Clay, etc. but maybe they're nanning? And now because any noob could potentially lead the enemy towards your miners, your team might have to waste a lot of time hunting down every single scout.

-Bringing back the Sup Rush. More tactics/strategies make for a more interesting game.

-Scout swarm rush. Since scouts can rip to scouts for free, scout rushing becomes powerful especially with a stronger Rix Gat1.

Cons:
-Severely limits tactical options at game start. Having no dedicated SR scout means homerips will have to be built more often. Normally if I was commanding Rix I would push my tele at the start to claim more ground and if someone needed to rip home I'd pop out in an SR and they could rip back home, recharge and reload and rip right back out. Obviously if you change it so reg figs can't rip to scouts because that would be broken, you would need a tele for them to rip home, limiting options for the commander and generally making tele pushing a riskier enterprise (some people would say rightly so). However having a home SR is no substitute for a homerip if the enemy bomb rushes.

-Severely limits miner offence if you don't have a home sup rock. You need Enh Figs before you can rip to kill miners which I think is a huge nerf to Rix. Yeah you get more money because you don't have to hand out SRs but even if you save 10K+ in the long run, it is not worth losing the ability to have figs on target from the first three minutes of the game.

-The above point ties in with the point about the enemy not knowing which scout to whack...but they don't have to because figs can't rip to scouts anymore, and most people with a clue can tell using "Game State" if the enemy has a techbase for Enh Figs.

-Having to Sup Rush to get any sort of miner O retards your econ and expansion later.

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To summarise, I disagree with Adaven's proposed changes, firstly because I agree with the SR scout implementation of DN and I don't think it's broken or needs fixing, and secondly because it will make Rix suck at the start in terms of Miner Offence.

[Adaven]

Chrono:

Homerips - You can still push your opening tele, with 2 options: 1) buy a carrier like all the other factions can (remember you have some extra cash now), 2) launch in a reg scout and at least all your scouts can rip home. You could get all the scouts back home much faster than you could ripping figs back home to a single "SR Scout" since each scout that rips in could now act as another teleport.

Miner O - It seems you are really just worried about early game. Exp/Tac teams almost never use figs ripping to scouts for Miner O once they have tech up. Anyways, early game the scout swarms can still do a surprisingly good job of miner O, it takes more people to pull off, but you have more opportunities to try. You can go from 1 scout to 4 in 25 seconds. They are actually quite good at killing cons as well. My first XT squad game we murdered a SysX defended IC con with 1-2 figs who walked high and a ton a scouts dropping prox. Although killing IC miners early game will be trickier

In principle I agree about not changing things for the sake of change, so I'm not too upset if this doesn't happen right away. However there are some problems with the current implementation (however minor) that these changes would correct:

-Regular/Adv scouts would now have actual usefulness in a combat situation.
-It would return Rixian Gameplay to be more in line with the faction background. Scouts swarming a target reminds me of worker bees in a suicidal frenzy to stop an intruder. Also, when hunting rix scouts, I missed the sense of urgency to quickly eliminate every last one before they completely infested a sector.
-It would also make sneaky Rix HTT runs more viable. It would be a nice change from int camps and and the occasional short aleph run.

[CronoDroid]

QUOTE (Adaven @ Dec 5 2008, 09:09 PM) Chrono Crono:

Miner O - It seems you are really just worried about early game. Exp/Tac teams almost never use figs ripping to scouts for Miner O once they have tech up. Anyways, early game the scout swarms can still do a surprisingly good job of miner O, it takes more people to pull off, but you have more opportunities to try.

-It would also make sneaky Rix HTT runs more viable. It would be a nice change from int camps and and the occasional short aleph run.

Yes it is a waste to hand out SRs if you're going Exp...but it takes at least five-seven minutes to get your tech out if you buy a second round of cons (as Rix it's usually a good idea), during which time figs and SRs can do some serious damage. In fact ideally with Rix since you do have one of the most versatile and powerful opening capabilities in a PUG their economy should be stuffed if you can help it. Obviously this doesn't always happen and with reg Figs not able to rip to scouts it makes this important goal even more difficult to carry out.

I have seen SR scouts and SFs used in conjunction to good effect, even if SFs are fast, why walk to a sector (and potentially get discovered) when you can rip in? Most players and commanders I think would emphasise co-ordination between SFs and SRs.

Those early minutes in a game are vital for Rix to do some economy damage...if you have to Sup Rush to do so it damages your econ almost as much as you can damage theirs. Not enough to make it unviable but more so than with the current SR implementation. Yes, it adds a sense of urgency to Rix so teams and commanders will want to overwhelm the enemy quickly and finish them off before the 30 minute mark, but that is usually no fun plus it's a fairly major nerf which I don't think Rix needs.

The point on HTT runs is good though, it certainly will make HTT runs better for Rix but if you're going Rix Exp sneaking around is probably not your best option anyway. It's a bonus but not enough to offset the start game nerf, and Rix has always been a strong starting faction, not a comeback faction.

[Drizzo]

The only thing the current Rix SRs do is make people lazy. All other factions are capable of escorting cons from the start with their opening combat ship, or flying off in a group going for a miner, how is this concept any different for Rix?

Bring back the old ones. Too many people will resign because they say "not enough SRs", I understand it's a huge perk, but without it, how is rix any different from the other factions in terms of opening moves? No, base your gameplay more on skill rather than utilizing cheese.

[Adept]

I like it Adaven. Having separate SR scouts is clumsy. I also like the fact that early miner rushes will be scouts ripping to scouts, not figs ripping to SR's.

Rix heavy scouts may develop into a problem with this, but if they do it's the heavy scout that is the problem, not getting rid of the SR's.

[pkk]

QUOTE (Adaven @ Dec 6 2008, 04:33 AM) Balance Observations:
-Basic figs could no longer rip to basic scouts to offset the uber fig swarms possible with all scouts having SR. Note that enh/adv figs could still rip to any scout and reg figs could still rip to adv/hvy scouts. I can't remember, but basic figs on autopilot might still try to rip to reg scouts and get "aborted".

That also means Figs can't rip to Carriers anymore?

[Adaven]

QUOTE (pkk @ Dec 6 2008, 07:37 AM) That also means Figs can't rip to Carriers anymore?

Basic figs could still rip to carriers. Carriers have 2000 energy, Scouts only have 1200. Changing the amount of energy a fig uses to rip in to 1201 lets them still rip to carriers but not rip to the scouts.

Crono, this change actually helps SF's hunt miners, as they would be able to rip to any scout on the map, not just "SR's".

You keep saying that not being able to rip figs to basic scouts will completely neuter Rix's ability to kill miners early game unless you rush sup, but I disagree. With current SR's most of the time you get 1, maybe 2 figs to rip in time to hit the miner before it dies or gets heavy D/docks. In the same amount of time you could have 3-4 scouts rip in instead, providing almost the same amount of firepower with the option for more people to keep ripping in if needed even if that first scout gets killed.

[pkk]

QUOTE (Adaven @ Dec 6 2008, 06:31 PM) Basic figs could still rip to carriers. Carriers have 2000 energy, Scouts only have 1200. Changing the amount of energy a fig uses to rip in to 1201 lets them still rip to carriers but not rip to the scouts.

So you would nerf the rix carrier, compared to other factions carriers?

[Adaven]

QUOTE (pkk @ Dec 6 2008, 04:52 PM) So you would nerf the rix carrier, compared to other factions carriers?

Indirectly, sort of. The carriers are not being changed at all.

Here's the current system:

Rix Carrier has 2000 units of energy. When a basic fighter rips in, it takes away 1200 units of energy from the carrier, leaving it with 800. Before another fighter can rip in, you have to wait for the Carrier to regenerate another 400 units of energy (takes 5 seconds).

Proposed system:

Carrier still has 2000 units of energy. When a basic fig rips in, it takes away 1201 units of energy. 2000-1201= 799. Meaning the carrier will have to regenerate 401 units of energy before a 2nd fig can rip in. So yes it might nerf rix carriers in that it might take extra second for the 2nd consecutive fig to be able to rip in. The 3rd, 4th, + figs should be able to rip in just as fast as before.