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Andon
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Post by Andon »

ChildOfDeath wrote:QUOTE (ChildOfDeath @ Oct 27 2008, 02:19 AM) Ok, I'll address a couple of things before I crash, but its late so I may completely change my opinion tomorrow. And understand, I'm not trashing you or your faction, just offering some advice on what its going to take to make it balanced enough that the CC team doesn't have to gut it to make it usable.
Oh, believe me, I know. When someone's trashing one of my ideas, they usually do it pretty vocally.

QUOTE Its more a problem of the fact that you establish a base in a sector, that base can now eye pretty much anything that comes into the sector. If you want to reduce fig/int scan range, do it on the ships, not as a GA.[/quote]
Having it being called 'Ship scan range' I had thought that it had not effected base scan range. I shall run some tests later to determine this - If it does effect bases, then I am definitely going to change it.

QUOTE If those numbers are with missiles mounted they are to low. If they are with without missiles mounted they are to high to be useful. Balancing stealths without cloak is going to be nearly impossible, I would definitely consider rethinking this.[/quote]
If it proves to be too difficult, then it will be added in. And those are the numbers without missiles loaded. Also, SBs use an anti-base beam weapon rather than missiles, in case you didn't catch that bit of the giant post of death above.

QUOTE Look at belters for a good example of how this should work.[/quote]
What, exactly, do you mean? Belters have 1.15 speed and 1.05 hull, and their ships are modified to have something like 200% hull before the modifier.

QUOTE 4.5 minutes is not enough time to get a new bomb run going to a base. Shield repair rate is a non issue, using it as a balance tool is really just a way to make factions seem weak without actually giving them a weakness. The only time it would effect anything is in galving situations, and even then only when dealing with uncoordinated galvers.[/quote]

As I said: So the theory went. That will be changed

QUOTE Damage is the only missile GA that matters. Having it at 1.1 is above average. Nerfing track and saying thats good is the same situation as base shield regen, its essentially a non issue, as the difference between 1 and .85 is barely going to register for most cases, especially on a team this heavily biased towards sup or exp.[/quote] Then missiles shall be changed.

QUOTE You also shouldn't balance something based on the other guy being able to run away. Running away does exactly 0 good in all the cases that matter (I.E. Miner defense, bomber defense, bomber offense, con defense...) Sure you can run away from a dogfight, but dogfighting has very little actual impact on the game, besides building up KBs and morale damage.[/quote]
You have a very good point there.

QUOTE This has to be balanced based on $ per sector. With this faction you are pulling nearly double the amount of money in per sector as any other faction. And despite the .5 mining speed, you are pulling in roughly the same amount of money over time. Possibly even more because your miner has to make less trips per $7k.

Sure your first miner load will take an extra minute or two to get in, but as soon as it does you have effectively gotten 2 miner loads out of 1 rock in 50% more time. You can do the math for the rest.[/quote]

Hrm... As I said before, the Econ will be the first thing to change after some beta testing. Honestly, I suck at alleg econ stuff, so I'll have to rely on other people's feedback in order to balance it.
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ChildOfDeath
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Post by ChildOfDeath »

Andon wrote:QUOTE (Andon @ Oct 27 2008, 12:10 AM) Having it being called 'Ship scan range' I had thought that it had not effected base scan range. I shall run some tests later to determine this - If it does effect bases, then I am definitely going to change it.
Its been a very long time since I looked at a core file, but I don't believe there was a separate GA for base scan range. If there is, then I withdraw my objection to this.

Andon wrote:QUOTE (Andon @ Oct 27 2008, 12:10 AM) If it proves to be too difficult, then it will be added in. And those are the numbers without missiles loaded. Also, SBs use an anti-base beam weapon rather than missiles, in case you didn't catch that bit of the giant post of death above.
I did miss the AB beam weapon, but for SBs a perma 30% sig means they are still going to be largely ineffective. SFs on the other hand will be completely useless.

Andon wrote:QUOTE (Andon @ Oct 27 2008, 12:10 AM) What, exactly, do you mean? Belters have 1.15 speed and 1.05 hull, and their ships are modified to have something like 200% hull before the modifier.
Only belter's small ships are like that. You can not have 1.5 hull bombers. Its just a bad idea, as you could build an entire faction whos only perk is 1.5 hull and it still probably wouldn't be balanced. 1.5 hull miners and cons is also probably to strong.

Andon wrote:QUOTE (Andon @ Oct 27 2008, 12:10 AM) Hrm... As I said before, the Econ will be the first thing to change after some beta testing. Honestly, I suck at alleg econ stuff, so I'll have to rely on other people's feedback in order to balance it.
I'll write it out for you then (Note: Numbers are completely pulled out of my ass, as I'm at work):

Normal Game starts:
0:00 - Miner leaves base
0:20 - Miner gets to rock
2:20 - Miner heads home full
2:40 - Miner docks 6.5k
2:45 - Miner undocks
4:00 - Miner travels to new sector and begins mining
6:00 - Miner heads to refinery/op/home
6:20-7:00 - Miner docks 6.5k (Total = 13k)

New Faction:
0:00 - Miner leaves base
0:30 - Miner gets to rock
4:30 - Miner heads home full
5:00 - Miner docks 11.5k
5:05 - Miner undocks
7:05 - Miner travels to new sector and begins mining
11:00 - Miner heads to refinery/op/home
11:20-12:00 - Miner docks 11.5k (Total = 23k)

First miner: 13k over 7 minutes = 1.85k a minute
New miner: 23k over 12 minutes = 1.91k a minute

Regular miner becomes exposed to forward sectors significantly earlier.



Other things I've noticed after browsing through the posts:

-Why are you adding extra guns? You're either going to have massive ammo problems, or if you give them enough ammo to effectively use those guns, they are going to annihilate any other ship. I'd say stick to the standards for now, then slowly change/add things, don't go so far away from the defaults right away.

-Light base hull capitals might sound like an awesome idea in theory, until someone uses a bomber to defend and completely annihilates an entire wave of capships with 1 rack of AB missiles.
In difficult ground, press on
In encircled ground, devise stratagems
In death ground, fight.
Sun Tzu- The Art of War, circa 400 B.C.
Andon
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Post by Andon »

I see what you mean about the miner.

With the bombers: they do have no shields. Again, I'll reserve complete judgement for after beta testing.

Stealths: I'm still wondering about this myself - What range of sig would you say would be good for one of the ships, without it being an uber-ship that flies everywhere uneyed?

Bases: I know there is not a separate GA for base scan range, but I am also pretty sure that it does not effect bases (Otherwise why would Dreg have their base scan ranges modified to the same levels?)
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ChildOfDeath
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Post by ChildOfDeath »

Bomber shields don't matter. They only function as a minor buffer for nans to reacquire the bomber after going through an aleph. High hull means more play when nanning, which turns into bombers that are significantly harder to kill.
In difficult ground, press on
In encircled ground, devise stratagems
In death ground, fight.
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Andon
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Post by Andon »

You have a good point.

Just ran some tests - It seems that the 'ship sensor' GA DOES effect bases. I did not intend for it to effect bases - Changing the base sensors isn't something that's difficult, either. I simply wanted the 1.25 for most ships - Chaning a handful of bases is easier than changing all of the ships.

I have already changed the cap ship's hull type. It died, really really fast, against the equivalent of 2 figs with 2 Dis2 + Galv each. It's now 'Super-heavy' hull type.

As for the guns, I added it simply because it fits what I want for the faction - Flying bricks with a lot of guns. Somewhat of another counterbalance to their speed as well. I have not changed any of the ammo amounts, and I have generally left the gunmounts the same except on the advanced levels, with the exception of the scout. I've already reduced the Enh Interceptor's gunmounts to two instead of the four.
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zecro
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Post by zecro »

ChildOfDeath wrote:QUOTE (ChildOfDeath @ Oct 27 2008, 02:22 PM) -Light base hull capitals might sound like an awesome idea in theory, until someone uses a bomber to defend and completely annihilates an entire wave of capships with 1 rack of AB missiles.
This.

Even if you changed the hull type, isn't AB still super effective? Especially since the caps are HUGE and slow. I don't think a bunch of nans would be able to repair away the damage from an AB before another one hits. Here's what I would do to defend from a Faction X cap: launch 4 small craft and three bombers. If the turret range is 1500 on the cap, it'll take about 6-7 seconds for the bombers to get into firing range of the capship. 11 seconds in, three bombers have fired off six ABs. The small craft has disoriented the turrets. Your capship is dead in short order at a fraction of the price. Faction X caps are slower and bigger ergo they are easy targets for bombers.
Andon
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Post by Andon »

The hull type is now Super Heavy, just like a Battleship's.

This means that the modifiers for Anti-Base weapons is 1 rather than the 15 that it is for Light and Minor bases, and 10 Major bases.

This means that AB 1 does 400 damage, and AB2 does 500 damage per missile, rather than the 6000 and 7500 that they would do if it were a light base hull.

It also has something like 40000 hull - It takes quite a while to kill. Now, note, that 40k hull is counting the modifier, and it will go down after testing (It was an arbitrary number), but the ship is almost three times as long as any other faction's battleship, so it should have the hull to compensate for the size
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ChildOfDeath
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Post by ChildOfDeath »

Andon wrote:QUOTE (Andon @ Oct 27 2008, 11:58 AM) Stealths: I'm still wondering about this myself - What range of sig would you say would be good for one of the ships, without it being an uber-ship that flies everywhere uneyed?
I don't believe stealths can be balanced without an on/off cloak and an energy dependency. Either you have softer weaker figs, or you have ships that are essentially perma cloaked without an energy drain.
Andon wrote:QUOTE (Andon @ Oct 27 2008, 01:20 PM) It also has something like 40000 hull - It takes quite a while to kill. Now, note, that 40k hull is counting the modifier, and it will go down after testing (It was an arbitrary number), but the ship is almost three times as long as any other faction's battleship, so it should have the hull to compensate for the size
Wat? Size isn't a particularly big consideration when you get to the capital level. If you have problems hitting them you should not be playing this game. I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say that a capital with 40k hp is to much. By quite a bit. But could you do a separate write up on the capitals for this faction? I'm a little confused by what I've read.

For the record though, I think the current cap ship implementation is very good. Meddling in this area is generally going to do more harm then good when it comes to faction balance.
In difficult ground, press on
In encircled ground, devise stratagems
In death ground, fight.
Sun Tzu- The Art of War, circa 400 B.C.
zecro
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Post by zecro »

Andon wrote:QUOTE (Andon @ Oct 27 2008, 03:20 PM) The hull type is now Super Heavy, just like a Battleship's.

This means that the modifiers for Anti-Base weapons is 1 rather than the 15 that it is for Light and Minor bases, and 10 Major bases.
Translation: It's not very effective...
zombywoof
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Post by zombywoof »

zecro wrote:QUOTE (zecro @ Oct 27 2008, 01:42 PM) Translation: It's not very effective...
Actually "it's not very effective..." would be if it did 1/4x or 1/2x damage. As it stands it's a no message attack. Better hope you at least get STAB! :ninja:
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