The EXP problem

[DreamWalker]

Tltr: Small, incremental changes over time is what we need with DN serving as a good baseline; 10% nerf to exp coupled with 10% perk to sup and we have a completely new environment, make figs more fun to fly by increasing their manouverability



some people here are on crack apparently, and Grim's ideas are extremely fundamental

The gameplay is so complex, and whereas you like it or not, DN is *fairly* balanced and overal is a fun core to play. Exp is fun, and needs to remain fun just less uber comparing to other tech paths.

Now, how complex this game is. Think about it. Reducing int fuel capacity by 10% means lower top speed attained, shorter and slower glide with forward booster activated, the 5 sec of the reload becomes much longer relatively to how long the int can boost and so on. Thus a 10% reduction in int fuel capacity translates to ints being slower and their range is decreased by much more then 10%. This is a very, very important change that will affect the gameplay. 15% reduction in int fuel capacity might seem to be a bit extreme for starters, but hell, why not. Also, I like troy's idea and would like it implemented somewhere but possibly is too fundamental of a change for a CC, at least in the early phases.

I'm quite okay with tac how it is, maybe moving adv miners to tac would make sense, but anyways the main idea IIRC is to make sup *more* fun to fly and stronger in games sup vs exp. If we - through small changes - reduce overal exp's strenght by 10%, and increase sup's strenght by 10%, we get a dramatic change. Also, bare in mind that sup leads to the strongest end game tech there is, the xrm drop, and galvs are extremely powerful as well. Right now the main issue is that figs - relatively to ints - lack manouverability/mobility and have low dps vs fast moving targets. The low dmg potential vs fast moving targests can be justified. Figs have no need to be as good dog fighters as ints in 1 on 1 engagements, and rather then dfing 1 on 1 a fig should boost rip away and do something productive. The problem is this low dps coupled with much shorter range - ints can boost and whore up areas far, far away from home (which is bad), figs - even with their ripping capabilities - have very hard time operating far from home and whereas 2 -3 hvy ints can achieve something 2 sectors from home, same number of high sig slow moving figs can only serv as dog meat. Thus, decreas ints range, make figs more fun to fly through increasing their manouverability, and extend their range possibly through more efficient boost2/boost3.

And yeas, IC exp is played so often in SGs as it best reflects the philosophy behind competitve gameplay . You get awesome starting ship, you get bases that are very hard to move, you get ripping miners, which vs coordinated efforts will give you an upper hand. You get biggest bang for your buck with IC and on top of all that you very easily get the Hvy Ints which on maps that are mostly played are the king and queen of all godliness.

[spideycw]

QUOTE (Dark_Sponge @ May 7 2008, 05:17 PM) I've reduced int scan range to 200 in DN and then tested it. You are blind. You cannot see a thing. I boosted into the enemy home with an int and there were miners and a large constructor in it (I knew because I was playing both sides). Even knowing their general location in the sector I couldn't find them. I flew expanding circles around the garr looking for them for 5 mins and never found them. It works.

Once again again it doesnt matter if they are blind if they can still boost where they please to kill miners miners. This can be accomplished by bringing along scout or heaven forbid just probing...even 1 rp can do this. Hence the problem isnt fixed since ints can still boost 7 sectors to kill miners

[madpeople]

spidey, you are making one fatal assumption, the team has competence and can do teamwork.

continue with that argument assuming that the sector hasn't been probed and no one wants to fly scouts when they can use hvys /tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":P" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" />

(the idea of no scan range is to force them to use teamwork to do things, and prevent solo hvys flying 3 sectors, flying over to a rock and killing the miner by them selves)

[Evincar]

again, who cares balancing pickup games? why don't you see the competitive side of it? (aka this won't change anything on an SG mp)

[madpeople]

hence you change something else too! /tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":P" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" />

if it will improve things in pickup games then that's a good thing

[Paradigm2]

Read DW's post... I completely agree!

I notice a trend of people that command (and win) a lot having a very good idea of what is broken and how to fix it. It is probably because we utilize these cheeses ourselves all the time /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":biggrin:" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

[Drizzo]

I'd actually just support Gat 3 doing as much damage per gun as Mini2 (73 ish I think), instead of Gat 3 doing as much damage as Mini 1 (50/sec).

I'm sold if that happens /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

[spideycw]

QUOTE (Drizzo @ May 8 2008, 03:25 PM) I'd actually just support Gat 3 doing as much damage per gun as Mini2 (73 ish I think), instead of Gat 3 doing as much damage as Mini 1 (50/sec).

I'm sold if that happens /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Are you removing missiles or something?

[madpeople]

no, they get seeker 3 free obviously /tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":P" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" />


on a related note,
i say seeker 3 should be halved in price and require starbase OR adv sup (seeker 2 should also have it's price halved so it's the same price as df)

[Dark_Sponge]

QUOTE (spideycw @ May 8 2008, 07:50 AM) Once again again it doesnt matter if they are blind if they can still boost where they please to kill miners miners. This can be accomplished by bringing along scout or heaven forbid just probing...even 1 rp can do this.

Rescue probes have too low of sig anyway, that should be fixed (sorry Vly). But if the attacking team uses teamwork (ints plus scouts) to attack the defending team can counter with teamwork of their own (keeping sectors deprobed and focusing attacks on scout spotters). Exp with low scan range would still rock, it'd just have to be used (and countered) differently. I want ints to be able to boost two sectors to defend miners. Cutting int's fuel way down = more miner/constructor defense in figs = bad.

QUOTE (Grim_Reaper_4u @ May 8 2008, 12:45 AM) nerfing scan might work but it will cause problems in the defensive role of ints (you won't see missileless shieldless nans unless you close to 100) with a scan of 200. you would also be owned by figs that drop shields and lob missiles at you (unless you're a vet that follows the missiles

Lemme make sure I understand what you're saying. While defending a base with a scan range of ~2000-3000 (not to mention probes) you'll have trouble seeing the nans and figs? That's your argument?

Ok, I suppose that situation could crop up if the enemy was making a long walk across the sector. If that was the case however, you'd just use ints as if you were attacking, with scout support. This is a game about teamwork. Adding a gameplay element that encourages teamwork is going to help, not hurt.