SysX vs SRM

Grimmwolf_GB · Post by **Grimmwolf_GB** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:14 pm

I am interested on how you were able to adjust to the drastic prize changes. Were you able to get adv tech on the settings? Was is too much, to unbalanced?
Dreg went EXP, but what did IC chose?

ImmortalZ · Post by **ImmortalZ** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:06 pm

Sorry to hijack the thread, but PK vs SF was also on GoDII R5, IC v IC.

We initially thought the prices would hit us hard, but we decided that a good miner defense would just get us tech, albeit slightly delayed. Game was on Star and we pushed an op next to their home cutting off their own pushed op and denied their exp con the rock. They did buy a tac and end up killing all our miners in a short span of time, but we got heavies with mini3 by the 50min mark (I think). Game summary hasn't been posted yet, so I'm not sure on details.

Evincar · Post by **Evincar** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:39 pm

we basically had to mine the whole map to get heavy ints and htts on the first game (IO), and the second we opened with an enhanced op and specmines (no miner), so figure out by yourself (by the end of the game we did have heavy ints + mini 3 on both though).

my thoughts about the matter are that it's a bit drastic solution. i know we were playing dreg, but anyway, we had to mine about 5 sectors to get just heavy ints with mini 3, another 3 more to get htts and emp. i think the upped costs are nice, but they are a bit overnerfing atm.

it also makes ic exp the most viable techpath (second game. srm pulls an ic adv exp with 2 mined sectors@25 mins) , since you can pick up mini 2 (10k), you get heavy ints free (22.5k). and you only need to pay 5 more k to upgrade your base (this usually counterbalanced the fact that ships costed money, but if you upp the money they are worth, it provides an even bigger advantage over other exps)

Evincar · Post by **Evincar** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:41 pm

Grimmwolf_GB · Post by **Grimmwolf_GB** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:51 pm

The idea behind the change is: Miners are important, Hvy ints should be late, not at 16 minute mark. (as it used to be)
If you read the readme, you will see that the prizes are now comparable to sup and tac. That means, that all tech takes as long as exp to get. (Noir changed it in the other direction, he made sup half prize)

IC might need an adjustment though, the money difference is about 17K, 3 miners:
http://www.freeallegiance.org/forums/index...st&p=206939
It might get more expensive in R6.

Thank you for playing the core. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Typhoone · Post by **Typhoone** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:15 pm

I played the SRMvSYSX game and we went IC expansion. I believe it was a huge advantage over the dregk economy. External influences aside, IC Mini2 heavy ints come out to $50001, if you find mini2 (very likely) $40001. Compare this to Dreghk - which has to pay an additional $22.5k for the ships - that's 50% more. With high money settings, as IC we were able to do it on just 4 He3 rocks.

[edit] I think Dreg also pays an additional $2.5K for base con over IC - and an additional $5k for adv base research. so... 30k more than IC for mg2 heavy ints?

Possible off the top of my head solutions: IC techbases cost a little more - like Bios Adv Base cons. Or further increase cost of IC adv upgrades. A solution not affecting cost could be to make the ships require research (for like the intercept $1 cost) and have a longer research time... I think that is a global parameter though and may not be easily implemented.

Ty.

Death3D · Post by **Death3D** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:35 pm

I think it's a little unfair to compare Dreg and IC since their extremes on an econ line. Maybe compare IC vs say, Rix, and Dreg vs Rix, then see what it comes up with?

I know Dreg has a high He yield that ofsetts its higher costs, but couldn't find it in the academy. Any idea what it is around?

If the (He Yield/total cost to Heavy ints for Dreg) / (He Yield/total cost to Heavy ints for Rix) hovers around 1, then the change has been pondered. And all blatant advantages IC has are part of their perks. They get free ships. Best solutions have already been named.

Typhoone · Post by **Typhoone** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:03 pm

Death3D wrote:QUOTE (Death3D @ Feb 25 2008, 02:35 PM) If the (He Yield/total cost to Heavy ints for Dreg) / (He Yield/total cost to Heavy ints for Rix) hovers around 1, then the change has been pondered. And all blatant advantages IC has are part of their perks. They get free ships.

This would be a better metric to analyze. A correction on the advantage of IC getting free ships though: that perk becomes significantly more powerful if you are doubling/increasing by 30% the cost of the same ships for ALL the other factions!

I think that is what is being explored here.

Ty.

Evincar · Post by **Evincar** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:14 am

the problem is, as already pointed out, in the ammount of he3 you need to amass to get heavy ints and full tech. with ic, this becomes borderline unbalanced comparing to other exps (dreg exp is 12.5k, 16.7k for ints, 12.5k, 12.5k for miniguns, and 31k more for the upgrade, not counting the 10 k of GAs and the 50 more k you need to get htts and all the other perks - and 12.5k for the base -). in this case, we are talking about an ic basic cost at precise $40k+1, that is about 18k per sector at 1.0 for ic, an about 23k for dreg. considering we use the same ic base to mine, we wouldn't need any extra base costs, with dreg let's put one single ref, just to get a more realistic feel to it +3750

total costs for heavy ints with mini 2 (mini 2 found)

ic - base (10k) + upgrade (30k) + ints ($1) = $40k+$1
dreg - base (12.5k) + upgrade (31.5k) + ints (12.5k) + heavy ints (16.6k) + refinery (3.8k) = 77k (rounded up)

so, how many sectors do you need to mine to afford this? (not counting opening cons, enhanced cons, any other tech, and haven't factored Yield GA in -except the dreg ref-)

IC - 40/18 = 2.2 sectors
Dreg - 77/23 = 3.3 sectors

since i probably didn't dazzle you with this basic school math, you should be able to arrive to your own conclusions, but just to point out, you need 1 more sector (one more entire full he3 sector) to arrive to the same tech level. If we factor in the op it would probably take to control this extra sector, add another 6k in the mix and you need another 1/4 sector to afford this

Death3D · Post by **Death3D** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:34 am

The point of this post is to highlight the effect of the changes undertaken. Bear with me for a little:

Same calculation. I'll keep using Rix cause it has a Smack-down-middle econ (except for crazy research time).

After Update

Rix - Exp con (10k) + Up Exp (25k) + Ints (10k) + Hvy Ints (12.5k) + Refinery (4k?)

Total (UpdatedRix) = 61.5k @ 18K /sector = 3.4 sectors.

Before Update

Rix - Exp con (10k) + UpExp (25k) + Ints (7.5k) + HvyInts (10k) + Refinery (4k?)

Total (OriginalRix) = 56.5k @18K /sector = 3.1 sectors.

CONCLUSION: The cost raising might prove an effective way to slightly delay the best tech in the game. Unluckily, it does not afflict IC as much, which counts "free" ships as one of its perks. The fact that the fix doesn't affect them lies not within the fix, but within IC.

EDIT: Forgot to point out the obvious: Fix IC plsthxbai?