Player Ranking in Allegiance

Allegiance discussion not belonging in another forum.
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sgt_baker
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Post by sgt_baker »

Sakana wrote:QUOTE (Sakana @ Dec 15 2007, 03:09 PM) TS seems like a great system to evaluate the overall benefit of a certain player to a team by showing a single number next to the players name, be it for his whoring, commanding probing/deprobing skills. (i'd vote for it but wasn't able to, although i can't state wether HELO is working or not))
Yes, that's exactly the idea - to rate the overall effectiveness of a player, and to balance games based on that rating.

QUOTE imho it would be good and useful for the comms to be able to see some statistics of the player, like the kills:podded,win:loss ratio, in order to be able to have a team which is balanced regarding the number of people who are good at fighting and those who are otherwise useful.[/quote]

Indeed. We had planned to include this type of functionality in AllegSkill MkII.
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Granary Sergeant Baker - Special Bread Service (Wurf - 13th Oct 2011)
heywood
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Post by heywood »

I've the same opinion as zecro.
Helo is ok. In addition we should switch 'Team imbalance' to 'auto' more often.



zecro wrote:QUOTE (zecro @ Dec 15 2007, 03:45 AM) <ignore this post>
I voted for the 4th "yes." However, I don't really care about it. I've been Inter4 (or Inter3) for forever and I rarely get better than a 2:1 kill:eject ratio. I think that Helo has some value, because even whores are useful for teams. A whore would rather int escort than nan, and miner hunt than miner d, but as long as you have a whore who kills valid targets, there's nothing wrong with it. Of course, excess whorage won't get a team anywhere. That's because it's a team game, and people who specialize in killing have an impact just like the people who specialize at probing or nanning or bombing.

BUT

Because any effort to attempt to show me how wrong I am is TL;DR, I can roll with a new system. I just think it ain't broke (so don't fix it), but everyone else has a polar opposite view, so I think that as a community member I can support the movement to a new system and not insist on my opinion, which is probably flawed and uninformed anyway.
</ignore this post>
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Alleg rule #17: The more valuable the con the less d it will have
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Sycrus
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Post by Sycrus »

Andon wrote:QUOTE (Andon @ Dec 14 2007, 05:36 AM) HELO is not accurate. I say completely replace it. However, it's better than nothing.
I say screw ranks. Take Fever for example, no offense to him, but his rank makes him look better than he can play. You still have people like Drizzo who can't break the Inter7 Vet1 barrier, and he is better than most Vets and experts. Ranks are based on stacks and winning games, kills don't mean anything, I get 30 kills and lose the game, I go down a rank. If we keep the ranks, make it so people actually gain ranks when points are earned. No HELO is necessary nonetheless.
NakPPI@XT wrote:QUOTE (NakPPI@XT @ Oct 7 2008, 03:50 PM) I didn't log in to allegiance to be taunted by some keyboard warrior that gets off by bragging about the size of his nuts in a 10 year old video game
jgbaxter
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Post by jgbaxter »

IIRC TrueSkill/AllegSkill takes into account your rank and gives you a proportiante share of the awarded rating points for being on that team...
n.b. I may not see a forum post replied to me or a pm sent to me for weeks and weeks...
SouthPaw
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Post by SouthPaw »

Gandalf2 wrote:QUOTE (Gandalf2 @ Dec 14 2007, 11:17 PM) So is mine, at 14. It's been months since it was over 15 or under 13 I think. However the fact you can pick a team out of the 13's and 14's that could beat a team entirely composed of players ranked 16 + (obviously you'd have to choose specific players for this to work)

The system can't legislate for the human decision to 'anti-stack' ie. to willfully join a side that is *likely* to lose. The many excellent players that do this regularly lose more games than their skill level warrants, keeping their rank artificially low. This is not a fault of the system, nor the players, and without some form of peer-based rank elevation* I doubt any automated method can counteract this phenomenon.






*Please do not implement a peer-based rank system. I have seen it go horribly wrong elsewhere, with people just voting for their friends.
MrChaos
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Post by MrChaos »

If I might be so bold I'd like to sum up what Ive been reading and hearing


The running away with in a walk majority of people's [opinion who have responded to the poll think that HELO isn't working as intended

Of said people they can be broken into three camps
1) The vast majority want a ranking system that works
a) some have drank the kool aid and are ready to see it implemented they have faith that it works
b) some have a glass full ready but want to know the flavor and they hope it works

2) A minority of rather passionate people don't want any ranking system
a) since they are basically sick of this @#(! since they never seen one that works
b) they just don't have a want for one no matter if it works

3) A smattering of people want to keep the present system
a) They believe it can be made to work
b) That it does work

The operative word here is work of course.

We went into this endeavour with far more people then we ended up, and others were working on it before I helped pick it back up. I'd name names and give props but well I'm afraid to do this until they have a chance to evaluate things they may not want to be associated with any longer.

The expressed goal from the moment I became involved was to NOT pick anything without evaluating the systems. Initial reaction was that it was sound idea and we would knock that out in a month or two. Ooooops. It was tough going, people left and sometimes in a huff when we didn't do it their way, etc etc but honestly very little lasting damage was done to anyone involved and for the ovewhelming part it went well but occasionally there were the fun filled moments where you just K-N-O-W you've got the right answer and why won't these friggin chimps listen to me /blush.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blush:" border="0" alt="blush.gif" /> . It can and did effect us all but honestly I regard as some of the most fun Ive had doing some intellectual work that I'm not getting paid for in a long time.

In the past I've waffled all over the place from "no answer is better then the wrong one" to "give me some kind of measuring stick". I understand full well other's views. I'm under no delusions that today's hero is tomorrow's goat and the only defense is that we were as rigourous as we could be before bringing it to the community. Do sound research, talk with experts, pool talent, check your assumptions, build a robust application, check your model, check it against other systems.

Now that the cat is out of the bag there are other checks: check to make sure you've got a bullet proof explaination, check your enthusiasm so you don't run roughshod over others, check your temper as others will surely disagree and vehemently even before they've seen anything, and most importantly check your $#@!ing ego. Tbt I'm not really enjoying this bit right now, nor am I seeking any glory ( see the hero and goat comment ), and honestly I'd have rather just floated under the radar while this all happened. I'm stepping up now out of respect for the many who have been involved like Terra for a very long time but in particular the Mad Professor Sgt_Baker who is a right fine fellow indeed. I undertook this effort to hopefully make a welcome, positive impact on a game Ive played for years and also as a thank you to everyone, from Solap to my newest favorite rookie Olivedrab, who have made me feel so connected to this game.

OK that said the last $#@!ing thing I want is to make things worse since it's going to effect me profoundly so stop being a bunch of over opinionated, over dramatic, overly suspcious weenies and let us present the $#@!ing evidence before you kick down our sand castle

Thanks
David

If this doesn't get implemented I won't die over it.
^^^^
was I've
Last edited by MrChaos on Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Zapper
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Post by Zapper »

Why don't you just post a list with the Skill score each player have..
I know for a fact that you have tons of data, and that there is made calculations on these data so far.

Personally i don't think the rating is enuf in this game..
Life suck's and then u play Alleg.
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sgt_baker
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Post by sgt_baker »

Zapper wrote:QUOTE (Zapper @ Dec 15 2007, 09:04 PM) Why don't you just post a list with the Skill score each player have..
I know for a fact that you have tons of data, and that there is made calculations on these data so far.

Personally i don't think the rating is enuf in this game..
Yes, we've got data for ~40,000 games, ~16,000 distinct players and ~750,000 player-games. There's LOTS of data and LOTS of results. The record of every ranking interaction runs to approximately 1,000,000 data points. I'm making an effort not to 'blind with science/data', and this takes time. I've also got to present the working of AS in layman's terms, which again takes a certain effort. When this is considered in conjunction with the slightly (and understandably) paranoid community, the fact that AS is an ongoing effort and far from a foregone conclusion, RL factors, the phase of the moon etc. etc. it is easy to see how I might have my hands full here. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

All in good time.

B
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Granary Sergeant Baker - Special Bread Service (Wurf - 13th Oct 2011)
asheron2k
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Post by asheron2k »

Honestly, I vote that we go back to a, modified, age rank
In general people improve as they play
Those who don't end up getting noticed for it

It was just a quick hack of a "ranking" system and, IMHO, worked better than anything since
Clay_Pigeon wrote:QUOTE(Clay_Pigeon @ May 13 2008, 08:24 PM) can i post a story about my cat flying an elf?
quackdamnyou
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Post by quackdamnyou »

sgt_baker wrote:QUOTE (sgt_baker @ Dec 15 2007, 06:23 AM) P.S. Microsoft have a site where they explain Trueskill in humanly digestable terms. http://research.microsoft.com/mlp/apg/trueskill.aspx Check it out.
Well worth the read.

I understand the math just well enough to get a feel for it. Actually it's not quite the 'silver bullet' I thought it would be, but I think that's actually a good thing. The specifics and examples will be great /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />
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