Friendly Fire, let's bring it back!

Zamargo · Post by **Zamargo** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:40 pm

Actually backtrack was right it was NWN Script from off my server. Though my question was actually what was wrong with the code which nobody even attempted its still nice to see that at least 1 person isnt talking crap and having nothing to show for it. It has something to do with the conversion to percentage but then again if you guys are insisting changing the variable on the spot that gives pay is a big job then its around the same difficulty for you.lol just another #1-#5 recap again .. i still think they are all good suggestions. look the editor that allegiance gives you doesnt make you a coder ogorass i know you can change numbers in it and everything but still.... lol you all keep talking about how difficult it is to change a single integer and ohh if i was a coder i would know that. I walk in the doors of companies that sell millions of dollars of their product each month and make changes much more difficult then that daily. I am not trying to claim eliteness as you guys keep hollaring but i do know what im talking about enough to know half the people talking about code here are clueless vets trying to hold on to their superiority complexes... i guese its sort of like music when a hardcore fan meets a guitarist that plays tabs from his fav band they sort of realize what i just player and enjoy im not a creator and im assuming that makes them feel the need to beef up.

I kept getting replies that mostly the newbie booting is because of ____, but you know what.... your wrong im a newbie myself believe me i know. I have NEVER been booted but the boot camp sergeant style comms are rough.

Okay for one thing i was due to be cadet on Oct 20 before even my first post. All in know is you can go to a massive multiplayer online WWII flight sim (any of them) ive played them all which believe me the learning curve is more then 3 times this game and their commmunity is much bigger. For some reason though being new to game is very pleasant and nobody rides you trying to get you to do the right thing.

No matter what you people say or even if you keep me from joining a team when a vet inner circle who hates me has com i will still be playing.I think the reason their are so many mouthy, ready to burn, firestarter vets around here is because its a free game. Same thing as the population a bar will get on First Two drinks free night. Its hard for me to even read what you guys have to say anymore most of it is a repeat of "we are elite coders any change to our game is ridiculous to even SUGGEST"

The fact that i could hate most of you and it still wouldnt affect my gameplay is true. Know why? if i dont have the teamates i need in battle i die anyhow but if i do.. and 1 of you is in the game that doesnt like me that gives me the option of only showing my face to get you to chase and ill bet i drag you into a situation where you die and yes i will definately talk shmack. Ive never played a game where an angry opponent doesnt give you the advantage /wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

btw since people keep repeating how #5 is allready in place... let me clarify the difference between a player not being able to get certain ships and a player having to go through the comm to buy... you see there are ships that you can buy that are regular old ships meaning only bombers would have to be unlocked for a player and ONLY in the situation WHERE FF IS ON

so yes #5 is infact a suggestion that is not allready in place so shut up about it.

Bard · Post by **Bard** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:46 pm

Cadillac wrote:QUOTE (Cadillac @ Oct 1 2007, 03:54 PM) The con's far out-weigh the pro's here.

I disagree. Culm, TheSerb, and Snack are all fatter than Vegeta.

takingarms1 · Post by **takingarms1** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:55 pm

Dear Zamargo,

You, sir, are an ass. You may not realize it now, which is why I think it important to point it out to you. However, re-read your posts with just a hint of self examination and you will see this to be true.

You have made various insulting and condescending statements regarding our little community, and in particular toward our most excellent cadre of developers. What you probably do not know is that many of those on the development team work full time as computer programers, and hold CS degrees, and do this, gratis, as a hobby. Some of them have replied to your post. By insulting and disrespecting them, you have insulted and disrespected some of the most important and honored members of our community.

As I see it, you have come here as a guest, and have castigated those who built and maintain this place. This makes you an ass.

Please re-read TB's post, ponder, and follow his sage advice.

Edit: spelling sucks

Clay_Pigeon · Post by **Clay_Pigeon** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:58 pm

hmm...what is my best response here?

Choice A (post "A" to vote for this choice):

QUOTE Zamargo,

You are not the only courageous newbie willing to take flak for bucking the system. We get plenty of newbies who have little trouble getting along in this community. You're taking flak, because you are acting like a dick. If you stop, you may find that the situation improves. Let me refer to you Clay_Pigeon's guide to getting people to like you:

1) STFU
2) Always prefer to fly first
3) Make fun of yourself before making fun of others
4) Did I mention STFU?
5) Verbally appreciate the things people do to help you.
6) Let others praise you, rather than praising yourself
7) STFUing is tremendously important. Do not underestimate its value.

I hope you have a better Allegiance experience, but you will need to change your behavior[/quote]

Choice B (post "B" to vote for this choice):
QUOTE Here is a picture of a monkey holding a dog. I will keep spamming pictures of monkeys until the thread dies.
[/quote]

Please vote now

factoid · Post by **factoid** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:11 pm

Zamargo wrote:QUOTE (Zamargo @ Oct 3 2007, 02:40 PM) Though my question was actually what was wrong with the code which nobody even attempted its still nice to see that at least 1 person isnt talking crap and having nothing to show for it.

I would assume the issue would be using iRange instead of fRange when trying to calculate the damage falloff. However, in C++ that would still work since the numerator of fDistance is still a floating point value. I'm not sure if NWN script does type promotion automagically, and since we're supposed to find a bug in a scripting language we might never have seen, I would assume the bug would have to be something that any developer should be able to catch, regardless of the languages they know.

Zamargo wrote:QUOTE (Zamargo @ Oct 3 2007, 02:40 PM) look the editor that allegiance gives you doesnt make you a coder ogorass i know you can change numbers in it and everything but still.... lol you all keep talking about how difficult it is to change a single integer and ohh if i was a coder i would know that.

The ICE application isn't anything like actually modifying the Allegiance source. Please point your browser here, this is the source for everything. For the sort of changes you're proposing, you're free to submit patches, and if they're well received, they will be accepted. Things that fundamentally change the gameplay are less likely to take, but if you find any bugs you feel like fixing, be our guest.

The point is not that you don't know what you're talking about because you're not a programmer, the point is you don't know what you're talking about because if you'd even looked at the engine source, you'd realize that it's old, it's ugly, and it's brittle. Some changes we've thought were simple in the past introduced show stopping errors and exploits, and in spite of it all the FAZ team has done wonders getting the engine updated. For starters the source we were handed from microsoft wouldn't even compile with a modern compiler, because VC++ 6.0 was written when some of the ANSI C++ standards weren't yet finalized, and so stuff like this would break.

for( int i = 0; i < 5; ++i ) {
}

for( int i = 0; i < 5; ++i ) { // Whoops! Local variable already defined.
}

Zamargo · Post by **Zamargo** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:44 pm

Im sorry you feel that way takingarms because the original intent of my post was to introduce myself and a few suggestions i thought would reduce the stress that a vet comm has about newbies being on the team. I was responded to with nothing but mean, ignorant posts. Infact if you have even come here have a bad view of me and cant scroll up this thread to find out why it took 4 pages of vets acting like assess themselves to get me started up then i really dont care what you think. yes i respond like an ass TO an ass. Allthough i did apologize to narg up there because i originally went overboard on him but the last thing i want to see below a post where i am trying to be civil & helpfull is that i shouldnt be allowed to post because im too new.

In all you guys need to stop being so hatefull to newbies i dont know why the community is so viciously mean but i do suspect its because its a free game. Does that mean im insulting those pilots who would have treated me with a shred of respect... no it doesnt. It means the people above who have done nothing but bandwagon up on a newbie because of some suggestions taken tooo seriously can stir in the fact that you cant do anything about my posts, my suggestions, my thoughts or my gameplay because if you could i will post here saying i was wrong. Until then since your such "vets" at the game try hunting me down why dont you i will playing all night. If i make you look stupid im taking a screen shot and posting here though be warned LOL infact someone please since im gonna be playing all night and im sure there are aat least 6 angry vets on my ass pray for me.

ohh yea and the whole "i think he will accidently not be allowed on teams" bit... i would suggest just doing it and saying very little about it considering its a bannable offense if done purposely and specificly to a player.

Look i dont hate anyone here but if you cant be decent to me i refuse to not at least respond and be offensive.

takingarms1 · Post by **takingarms1** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:08 pm

To put things in perspective for you, let me give you an illustration:

Imagine you are a veteran football player on an NFL football team, fresh from a 14-2 season. You have been playing football for a very, very long time, and you know what you are doing. You have dealt with many seasons of rookies coming on to your team, and you have a pretty good idea on how to go about integrating them into your team. Then, one of these rookies, fresh out of college, runs up to you and says, "Hey man, you veteran NFL players around here really don't treat us rookies so well. Can I make a few suggestions about how to re-structure your system to accommodate us rookies better?

"First of all, I think you should make it a rule that only the coaches can tell me what to do, because I hate being bossed around by the veteran players around here.

"Second, I think we should change the rules of the game so that when I'm playing, we get an extra point for every touchdown, because that will balance out the fact that I'm new and I don't know as much as the veteran players.

"Third, you shouldn't allow the QB to throw the ball to me without special permission from the coach so that I don't accidentally mess things up and get yelled at. Sound good?"

Now imagine you, as a veteran player, have heard these ridiculous suggestions every season when a new rookie joins your team.

You are the rookie, and this is what you sound like to us.

It's not that we don't want or value your input, it's just that it sounds ridiculous to us. After you have played for about a month you may come to agree. Now some people here are a bit brash, and might respond with something like, "wow, that's ridiculous." During a game, we may say worse, or be borderline insulting - because we are under stress, pressed for time, and trying to win a highly competitive game. That doesn't justify you calling us idiots, or anti-newbie, or stupid. Coming to our house and calling us names only makes YOU look like an ass. I urge you to refer to Mr. Pigeon's advice on being well-liked, as he is one of the most well-liked members of our little community.

Edit: I can't proofread worth a damn

Zamargo · Post by **Zamargo** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:11 pm

factoid wrote:QUOTE (factoid @ Oct 3 2007, 03:11 PM) I would assume the issue would be using iRange instead of fRange when trying to calculate the damage falloff. However, in C++ that would still work since the numerator of fDistance is still a floating point value. I'm not sure if NWN script does type promotion automagically, and since we're supposed to find a bug in a scripting language we might never have seen, I would assume the bug would have to be something that any developer should be able to catch, regardless of the languages they know.
The ICE application isn't anything like actually modifying the Allegiance source. Please point your browser here, this is the source for everything. For the sort of changes you're proposing, you're free to submit patches, and if they're well received, they will be accepted. Things that fundamentally change the gameplay are less likely to take, but if you find any bugs you feel like fixing, be our guest.

The point is not that you don't know what you're talking about because you're not a programmer, the point is you don't know what you're talking about because if you'd even looked at the engine source, you'd realize that it's old, it's ugly, and it's brittle. Some changes we've thought were simple in the past introduced show stopping errors and exploits, and in spite of it all the FAZ team has done wonders getting the engine updated. For starters the source we were handed from microsoft wouldn't even compile with a modern compiler, because VC++ 6.0 was written when some of the ANSI C++ standards weren't yet finalized, and so stuff like this would break.

for( int i = 0; i < 5; ++i ) {
}

for( int i = 0; i < 5; ++i ) { // Whoops! Local variable already defined.
}

factoid I appreciate your post being as civil and well composed as it is. i have the VC++ 6.0 compiler cost me 500 bucks or so when i first got it actually and yes .. i am a programmer,graphics designer,web designer, network admin so forth so forth. I understand the engine may look ugly infact most code winds up that way because you cant look at the whole picture of a painting you just now put the first brush mark on. Im not saying i could resdesign the system from the ground up im saying i yes infact could change the pay to increase if your a newbie which was the original programming debate. I do infact have 100% complete games recent and even as far back as 16 years old (9 years ago) made in VB 5.0. The reason i used a peice of NWN script of of my server is because the problem i had with that explode script was actually something purely math related and not language specific at all in the same thought that you originally expressed. I am used to declaring variables outside of loops and conditionals so that i can reuse the same variables without "variable allready used in scope" error. Im not sure if thats not the norm but personally i would have expected the above code to error at least from the environments im used to. Thank you factoid for your post it was a breathe of fresh air in this nasty nest lol and i can tell you do know what your talking about.

My rendition of it would probably look like this:

//Initial Variables (can be reused)
int iNum = 0;

for(iNum = 0; i < 5; ++i )
{}

for(iNum = 0; i < 5; ++i )
{}

Post by **BackTrak** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:33 pm

This one's for you Fact:

I am under the assumption that Allegiance paydays are set in the core per faction (Faction x gets y credits per time interval per payday). The money value shown at the bottom of the screen (You have donated YY credits.) is simply the players share of that Payday lump sum for that interval. I am also guessing that this is why the first payday when the game starts is huge. When you start a game with two players, the payday value the donating player sees is 1/2 half the starting cash.

Is that correct?

Basically, the point about increasing pay for newbies / ranks is moot under the current game play because the faction type sets the total payday amount, not the number/quality of players.

I hope I got that right anyway... /unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":unsure:" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />

factoid · Post by **factoid** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:36 pm

In typical fashion, one guy's talking about points a, b, and c. Other people jump on him for point b, and the rest of the flame war continues with one side talking about point c, and the other about point q.

Ignoring the point of "is a newbie payday bonus a good idea", changing newbie paydays isn't simple as "if( isNewbie(player) ) payday += NEWBIE_PAYDAY_BONUS". Someone with more experience with the code could answer this, but just a quick look at the code, I couldn't find any place where I could easily get access to the player ranks in game. I'm not 100% certain, but I believe the ranks are a function of the lobby, so once you're in game there's no way to know how many newbies are on your team at any given moment.

So the fact of the matter is, even something as 'easy' as giving newbies a payday bonus isn't.

I think where this community actually differs from a commercial game is that the forum moderators can't risk alienating potential customers. People here are very helpful, by in large, but those same people do not suffer foolishness. For someone who's 25, your internet age came off as 14-ish.